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		<title>Legal and financial status the 501(c)(3) con</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/legal-and-financial-status-the-501c3-con/</link>
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				<category><![CDATA[501c3]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Casey Fenton]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[legal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pickwick]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[With hesitation I take on the task of writing a summary with my view on legal and financial issues, because I’d rather do something more pleasant on this public holiday in Germany. I’ll try to be brief, and I won’t bother with lots of links to documents I’ll mention. If you want to see them [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=62&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-size:100%;">With hesitation I take on the task of writing a summary with my view on legal and financial issues, because I’d rather do something more pleasant on this public holiday in Germany. I’ll try to be brief, and I won’t bother with lots of links to documents I’ll mention. If you want to see them in the original, and check whether you agree with my assessment, please ask the management to publish them, and not me. They have them all, and most are public information by law.</span></p>
<p>What does 501(c)(3) mean?</p>
<p>The term 501(c)(3) relates to a clause in US tax law which gives federal tax exemption to certain organisations, both charitable and non-charitable (eg certain types of family trust funds which serve as a tax shelter for private wealth). Having 501(c)(3) status does not automatically mean the organisation is a charity. But if a charity wants federal tax exemption, and especially if it wants the ability to issue tax deductible donation certificates to US tax payers, or if it wants public funds (grants), it needs 501(c)(3) status. That status requires the organisation to file annual reports, including full financial statements on a form called ‘990’, to the US tax authorities (IRS), and to publish those reports and a number of other legal documents (on a web site, or in print, and send a copy on request). The status also imposes a number of rules on how the funds are used. Charity status does not change the private nature of an organisation, but in fact puts its funds under public supervision.</p>
<p>What is Couchsurfing’s legal status?</p>
<p>It was registered under the name “Couchsurfing International Inc” on 02 April 2003 by Casey Fenton, with four hired straw men as fellow incorporators to make up the legally required number, in the form of a Non-Profit corporation in the US state of New Hampshire. He was sole director and officer at least until 28 January 2007. Non-Profit does not automatically equal charity. Primarily it means that the corporation does not distribute any profits as dividends to its owners or share holders. It can, however, make profits and accumulate them, and if one wants money out of it, one has to pay oneself salaries, in addition to expenses. That’s what Casey Fenton started doing in 2005.</p>
<p>Was Couchsurfing a charity from the start?</p>
<p>That remains a little unclear. The original incorporating document, the Articles of Association, dated and signed March 2003, allow “charitable, religious, educational and scientific purposes” or purposes according to 501(c)(3), which is wider than just saying “charitable”.</p>
<p>One concern, however, is that none of those dedications of the corporation’s income or assets are stated with the qualification “irrevocable”. It may therefore be possible in future to change the purpose of the corporation, or indeed change its status from Non-Profit to For-Profit altogether.</p>
<p>Another concern is that Casey Fenton did not register the organisation as charity immediately with the Attorney General, as required by New Hampshire law, thereby avoiding certain filing and reporting duties, similar to those that come with 501(c)(3) status. As a result the organisation succeeded from April 2003 until November 2007 to keep secret from all members such documents that have to be filed with the Attorney General, and are public information by law, especially the corporate bye-laws, and the annual and full financial reports. This breached the law, and an investigation by the Department of Justice in New Hampshire is still pending, which might still result in the organisation and individuals being fined. In other words: Couchsurfing may, or may not, have been designed as a charity from the start, but unfortunately for several years it certainly did not behave like one. The general understanding in the community initially was that it’s Casey Fenton’s private company; he could do with it what he wanted; and it seems that he did for a long time.</p>
<p>How did Couchsurfing finally get on the official list of charities?</p>
<p>Following discussions in the community it seemed clear around September 2007 that Couchsurfing either indeed was a charity, but had breached charity law by not registering, or it was not a charity, in which case soliciting donations might have been fraudulent. As the management remained unresponsive to urgent questions, a complaint was placed before the Attorney General of New Hampshire on 05 November 2007, with a final warning and advice to the management to try and get their act together now.</p>
<p>On 14 November 2007 the Attorney General then received the registration and reports for 2003 to 2006. As a result Couchsurfing was then added to the official list of registered charities in New Hampshire, despite some remaining concerns. This has for instance made it possible for attendees of the Alaska collective to obtain volunteers’ visa or the US, whereas the earlier collective in Thailand still largely relied on volunteers taking the risk of breaking the local law and entering on tourists’ visa.</p>
<p>What are the remaining legal concerns?</p>
<p>At the time of filing on 14 November 2007 Casey Fenton was President (chairing the board of directors) and paid employee at the same time, and there is no indication that the situation has changed since. New Hampshire law expressly forbids that. As a result his employment contract may be nil and void, and the organisation may be entitled to reimbursement for all or part of the salaries paid to him.</p>
<p>From the time of incorporation until at least the middle of 2007 Couchsurfing did not have the legally required minimum of five members on its board of directors, for at least until the end of 2005 Casey Fenton remaining sole director and officer. This may mean that legal decisions and contracts from those years may be invalid, with all sorts of unforeseeable consequences. It may also cast additional doubts on the validity of Casey Fenton’s employment contract, if it was entered into by him as sole director contracting with himself as employee, which may also have violated legal “conflict of interest” rules.</p>
<p>Some of the documents filed on 14 November 2007 (under penalty of perjury) appear to be materially false or backdated, especially the full corporate bye-laws, “conflict of interest policy” documents signed by directors and officers, and the listings of directors for 2003 to 2006. The filed documents may create the wrong impression as if a full, legally composed board of directors had been in office throughout, and may disguise the facts leading to concerns about Casey Fenton’s employment especially. The other current four members of the board of directors have been made aware that they have been listed as serving during years when they were in fact not, and they appear to condone this, which may, if any of the above mentioned constitutes a criminal offence, in itself be a criminal conspiracy in that context.</p>
<p>What is the history of the 501(c)(3) application?</p>
<p>Even before incorporation, from at least 11 February 2003 to at least 15 July 2004, Casey Fenton stated on the web site that Couchsurfing was “a 501(c)3 Non-Profit Company”, when there is no evidence that an application had ever been filed, let alone approved, at that time. The management have never responded to questions about this with an explanation. (Incidentally this also shows that the company’s name was used at least two months before incorporation, which may constitute fraud.)</p>
<p>Amongst all subsequent statements are these: On 27 January 2007 Casey Fenton states: “We are in the process of moving to 501c3 and hope to do so in the next couple months”. On 13 April 2007 he stated: “We are filing for 501c3 status practically tomorrow”.</p>
<p>The management stated on 24 November 2007 that the application was filed. On 28 April 2008 General Manager Matthew Brauer stated he had to “Edit supplemental statements for our 501c3 application”. Today, 03 October 2008, ‘desaparecida’ states in the Brainstorm group: “CouchSurfing has been asked for more information and additional papers … at least twice … This is what I heard in July in an informal talk”.</p>
<p>The above mentioned concerns held on state level may very well adversely affect the result of the application for 501(c)(3) status. Reversely, a failure of the 501(c)(3) application may ultimately affect the organisation’s status in New Hampshire.</p>
<p>Will Couchsurfing always stay a charity?</p>
<p>So far there is no guarantee for that. As already mentioned, the purpose of the corporation, or even its non-profit status could possibly still be changed. The discussion in the community has therefore come forward with the suggestion to introduce the word “irrevocable” into the ‘dedication of assets’ clause in the corporate bye-laws. This would simply require a documented resolution by the board of directors, but unfortunately this has not found any response from the management.</p>
<p>Once the 501(c)(3) status is obtained this may change, but that will depend on the precise nature of the application, and the particular sub-case of 501(c)(3) exemption. It is unfortunate that the management refuse to publish the application, which may lay all doubts to rest, and would enable the community to add their expertise and help. However, the organisation is legally only obliged to publish the application once it has been approved. This means that if the application remains unsuccessful, they will never be legally obliged to publish it, so that it may never become transparent why it was rejected.</p>
<p>If the organisation has applied for genuine charity status according to 501(c)(3), then everything is fine. If it has made use of one of the other options of tax exempt status, that may in theory be given back voluntarily in future, and the organisation could still be changed into a commercial enterprise. However, at that point all tax benefits received so far would have to be repaid. Practically speaking the crucial point after receiving 501(c)(3) status would probably be when they start issuing tax deductible donation certificates to US tax payers; from that time it may well be impractical and too expensive to try and get out of tax exempt status again. This is the reason for some sceptics to fear that the management may not earnestly want the tax exempt status.</p>
<p>What about the financial statements on the web site?</p>
<p>Couchsurfing has published skeleton financial statements on its web site since 2004. Despite promises to have them independently audited, they remain unaudited. No budget forecasts are published, despite Casey Fenton’s statement on 15 June 2007: “we hope to have ready before mid July … our budget forecast for 2008”.</p>
<p>The published statements only show income and expenditure, and omit all assets and liabilities accounts. This raises the concern whether the substantial amounts of accumulated funds have in actual fact been held in corporate bank accounts at all times, or whether irregular personal “loans” have been made, which are expressly forbidden by New Hampshire law. These concerns are aggravated by comparatively low figures for interest income being shown, given the total of funds that should have been in bank accounts over time. It was communicated in May 2008, as an achievement resulting from the General Manager’s presence at the collective in Thailand (sic!), that a higher interest bearing savings account had been set up in the US.</p>
<p>So far the organisation is under no legal obligation to publish financial accounts themselves, although they have to file the information with the charity regulators, and it is public by law (meaning: everybody can ask the Department of Justice in New Hampshire for a copy), so those listings on the web site are voluntary. However, the figures on the web site are incorrect and often don’t match the figures in the official filings. Whilst there are no significant deviations, accountancy is supposed to be an exact science, and any irregularity, however small, is cause for concern.</p>
<p>What information is public by law and how to get it?</p>
<p>Couchsurfing has to file annual reports and full financial statements for the previous calendar year by 15 May of each year. As already mentioned, according to New Hampshire law they have no obligation to publish those themselves, but the information is public by law, and everybody can request a copy from the Department of Justice in New Hampshire. This includes the documents submitted for registration, especially the corporate bye-laws.</p>
<p>Should 501(c)(3) tax exempt be granted, similar reporting duties will apply, and the report to the federal tax authorities can then just be copied to the state agencies. One important difference will be that then the organisation itself will have the duty to publish, and everybody can ask the organisation for a copy. Once the status is given this will, as mentioned above, also include the full initial application.</p>
<p>At the moment Couchsurfing appears to be complying with the legal minimum requirements for disclosure of public information. Publishing skeleton financial statements without being required to may see as if they went above and beyond the minimum requirements, but that is not really the case, as the published figures are wrong. However, in the world of charities, voluntary and non-government organisations it is generally seen as good practice to be forthcoming and cooperative in disclosing information in which there is a justified public interest.</p>
<p>Conclusion</p>
<p>It would be in the interest of building trust and stability in the community if the management changed its policy from doing the minimum required by law to doing the maximum permitted by law. For an organisation with the core purpose of running a web site there really is no excuse for not having all the information on there.</p>
<p>As there seems to be a policy of ignoring discussions in the groups, and insisting on submitting all “questions” through ‘Contact Us Questions’, I will submit a copy of this posting in that way, stating that I would like a response to all issues raised, and I will post here any response I will receive.</p>
<p>And now I need a drink. Sorry for the length. ;-<a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/10/03/legal-and-financial-status-pickwicks-questions/trackback/">P</a></p>
<div class="meta" style="background-color:#f6f9c9;color:#666644;text-align:left;font-family:'courier new';border-color:#d0d0a0;border-style:solid;border-width:0 0 1px;margin:auto;padding:2px 5px 3px 6px;">
<div style="text-align:right;">by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/people/pickwick">Pickwick</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from Berlin, Germany (<a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=429&amp;post=1654953">Permalink</a>)</div>
</div>
<div class="description" style="text-align:justify;font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;padding:12px 14px 4px 16px;">With hesitation I take on the task of writing a summary with my view on legal and financial issues, because I&#8217;d rather do something more pleasant on this public holiday in Germany. I&#8217;ll try to be brief, and I won&#8217;t bother with lots of links to documents I&#8217;ll mention. If you want to see them in the original, and check whether you agree with my assessment, please ask the management to publish them, and not me. They have them all, and most are public information by law.</div>
<p>What does 501(c)(3) mean?</p>
<p>The term 501(c)(3) relates to a clause in US tax law which gives federal tax exemption to certain organisations, both charitable and non-charitable (eg certain types of family trust funds which serve as a tax shelter for private wealth). Having 501(c)(3) status does not automatically mean the organisation is a charity. But if a charity wants federal tax exemption, and especially if it wants the ability to issue tax deductible donation certificates to US tax payers, or if it wants public funds (grants), it needs 501(c)(3) status. That status requires the organisation to file annual reports, including full financial statements on a form called ‘990’, to the US tax authorities (IRS), and to publish those reports and a number of other legal documents (on a web site, or in print, and send a copy on request). The status also imposes a number of rules on how the funds are used. Charity status does not change the private nature of an organisation, but in fact puts its funds under public supervision.</p>
<p>What is Couchsurfing&#8217;s legal status?</p>
<p>It was registered under the name “Couchsurfing International Inc” on 02 April 2003 by Casey Fenton, with four hired straw men as fellow incorporators to make up the legally required number, in the form of a Non-Profit corporation in the US state of New Hampshire. He was sole director and officer at least until 28 January 2007. Non-Profit does not automatically equal charity. Primarily it means that the corporation does not distribute any profits as dividends to its owners or share holders. It can, however, make profits and accumulate them, and if one wants money out of it, one has to pay oneself salaries, in addition to expenses. That&#8217;s what Casey Fenton started doing in 2005.</p>
<p>Was Couchsurfing a charity from the start?</p>
<p>That remains a little unclear. The original incorporating document, the Articles of Association, dated and signed March 2003, allow “charitable, religious, educational and scientific purposes” or purposes according to 501(c)(3), which is wider than just saying “charitable”.</p>
<p>One concern, however, is that none of those dedications of the corporation’s income or assets are stated with the qualification “irrevocable”. It may therefore be possible in future to change the purpose of the corporation, or indeed change its status from Non-Profit to For-Profit altogether.</p>
<p>Another concern is that Casey Fenton did not register the organisation as charity immediately with the Attorney General, as required by New Hampshire law, thereby avoiding certain filing and reporting duties, similar to those that come with 501(c)(3) status. As a result the organisation succeeded from April 2003 until November 2007 to keep secret from all members such documents that have to be filed with the Attorney General, and are public information by law, especially the corporate bye-laws, and the annual and full financial reports. This breached the law, and an investigation by the Department of Justice in New Hampshire is still pending, which might still result in the organisation and individuals being fined. In other words: Couchsurfing may, or may not, have been designed as a charity from the start, but unfortunately for several years it certainly did not behave like one. The general understanding in the community initially was that it’s Casey Fenton’s private company; he could do with it what he wanted; and it seems that he did for a long time.</p>
<p>How did Couchsurfing finally get on the official list of charities?</p>
<p>Following discussions in the community it seemed clear around September 2007 that Couchsurfing either indeed was a charity, but had breached charity law by not registering, or it was not a charity, in which case soliciting donations might have been fraudulent. As the management remained unresponsive to urgent questions, a complaint was placed before the Attorney General of New Hampshire on 05 November 2007, with a final warning and advice to the management to try and get their act together now.</p>
<p>On 14 November 2007 the Attorney General then received the registration and reports for 2003 to 2006. As a result Couchsurfing was then added to the official list of registered charities in New Hampshire, despite some remaining concerns. This has for instance made it possible for attendees of the Alaska collective to obtain volunteers’ visa or the US, whereas the earlier collective in Thailand still largely relied on volunteers taking the risk of breaking the local law and entering on tourists’ visa.</p>
<p>What are the remaining legal concerns?</p>
<p>At the time of filing on 14 November 2007 Casey Fenton was President (chairing the board of directors) and paid employee at the same time, and there is no indication that the situation has changed since. New Hampshire law expressly forbids that. As a result his employment contract may be nil and void, and the organisation may be entitled to reimbursement for all or part of the salaries paid to him.</p>
<p>From the time of incorporation until at least the middle of 2007 Couchsurfing did not have the legally required minimum of five members on its board of directors, for at least until the end of 2005 Casey Fenton remaining sole director and officer. This may mean that legal decisions and contracts from those years may be invalid, with all sorts of unforeseeable consequences. It may also cast additional doubts on the validity of Casey Fenton’s employment contract, if it was entered into by him as sole director contracting with himself as employee, which may also have violated legal &#8220;conflict of interest&#8221; rules.</p>
<p>Some of the documents filed on 14 November 2007 (under penalty of perjury) appear to be materially false or backdated, especially the full corporate bye-laws, “conflict of interest policy” documents signed by directors and officers, and the listings of directors for 2003 to 2006. The filed documents may create the wrong impression as if a full, legally composed board of directors had been in office throughout, and may disguise the facts leading to concerns about Casey Fenton’s employment especially. The other current four members of the board of directors have been made aware that they have been listed as serving during years when they were in fact not, and they appear to condone this, which may, if any of the above mentioned constitutes a criminal offence, in itself be a criminal conspiracy in that context.</p>
<p>What is the history of the 501(c)(3) application?</p>
<p>Even before incorporation, from at least 11 February 2003 to at least 15 July 2004, Casey Fenton stated on the web site that Couchsurfing was “a 501(c)3 Non-Profit Company”, when there is no evidence that an application had ever been filed, let alone approved, at that time. The management have never responded to questions about this with an explanation. (Incidentally this also shows that the company’s name was used at least two months before incorporation, which may constitute fraud.)</p>
<p>Amongst all subsequent statements are these: On 27 January 2007 Casey Fenton states: “We are in the process of moving to 501c3 and hope to do so in the next couple months”. On 13 April 2007 he stated: “We are filing for 501c3 status practically tomorrow”.</p>
<p>The management stated on 24 November 2007 that the application was filed. On 28 April 2008 General Manager Matthew Brauer stated he had to “Edit supplemental statements for our 501c3 application”. Today, 03 October 2008, ‘desaparecida’ states in the Brainstorm group: “CouchSurfing has been asked for more information and additional papers … at least twice … This is what I heard in July in an informal talk”.</p>
<p>The above mentioned concerns held on state level may very well adversely affect the result of the application for 501(c)(3) status. Reversely, a failure of the 501(c)(3) application may ultimately affect the organisation’s status in New Hampshire.</p>
<p>Will Couchsurfing always stay a charity?</p>
<p>So far there is no guarantee for that. As already mentioned, the purpose of the corporation, or even its non-profit status could possibly still be changed. The discussion in the community has therefore come forward with the suggestion to introduce the word “irrevocable” into the ‘dedication of assets’ clause in the corporate bye-laws. This would simply require a documented resolution by the board of directors, but unfortunately this has not found any response from the management.</p>
<p>Once the 501(c)(3) status is obtained this may change, but that will depend on the precise nature of the application, and the particular sub-case of 501(c)(3) exemption. It is unfortunate that the management refuse to publish the application, which may lay all doubts to rest, and would enable the community to add their expertise and help. However, the organisation is legally only obliged to publish the application once it has been approved. This means that if the application remains unsuccessful, they will never be legally obliged to publish it, so that it may never become transparent why it was rejected.</p>
<p>If the organisation has applied for genuine charity status according to 501(c)(3), then everything is fine. If it has made use of one of the other options of tax exempt status, that may in theory be given back voluntarily in future, and the organisation could still be changed into a commercial enterprise. However, at that point all tax benefits received so far would have to be repaid. Practically speaking the crucial point after receiving 501(c)(3) status would probably be when they start issuing tax deductible donation certificates to US tax payers; from that time it may well be impractical and too expensive to try and get out of tax exempt status again. This is the reason for some sceptics to fear that the management may not earnestly want the tax exempt status.</p>
<p>What about the financial statements on the web site?</p>
<p>Couchsurfing has published skeleton financial statements on its web site since 2004. Despite promises to have them independently audited, they remain unaudited. No budget forecasts are published, despite Casey Fenton’s statement on 15 June 2007: “we hope to have ready before mid July … our budget forecast for 2008”.</p>
<p>The published statements only show income and expenditure, and omit all assets and liabilities accounts. This raises the concern whether the substantial amounts of accumulated funds have in actual fact been held in corporate bank accounts at all times, or whether irregular personal “loans” have been made, which are expressly forbidden by New Hampshire law. These concerns are aggravated by comparatively low figures for interest income being shown, given the total of funds that should have been in bank accounts over time. It was communicated in May 2008, as an achievement resulting from the General Manager’s presence at the collective in Thailand (sic!), that a higher interest bearing savings account had been set up in the US.</p>
<p>So far the organisation is under no legal obligation to publish financial accounts themselves, although they have to file the information with the charity regulators, and it is public by law (meaning: everybody can ask the Department of Justice in New Hampshire for a copy), so those listings on the web site are voluntary. However, the figures on the web site are incorrect and often don’t match the figures in the official filings. Whilst there are no significant deviations, accountancy is supposed to be an exact science, and any irregularity, however small, is cause for concern.</p>
<p>What information is public by law and how to get it?</p>
<p>Couchsurfing has to file annual reports and full financial statements for the previous calendar year by 15 May of each year. As already mentioned, according to New Hampshire law they have no obligation to publish those themselves, but the information is public by law, and everybody can request a copy from the Department of Justice in New Hampshire. This includes the documents submitted for registration, especially the corporate bye-laws.</p>
<p>Should 501(c)(3) tax exempt be granted, similar reporting duties will apply, and the report to the federal tax authorities can then just be copied to the state agencies. One important difference will be that then the organisation itself will have the duty to publish, and everybody can ask the organisation for a copy. Once the status is given this will, as mentioned above, also include the full initial application.</p>
<p>At the moment Couchsurfing appears to be complying with the legal minimum requirements for disclosure of public information. Publishing skeleton financial statements without being required to may see as if they went above and beyond the minimum requirements, but that is not really the case, as the published figures are wrong. However, in the world of charities, voluntary and non-government organisations it is generally seen as good practice to be forthcoming and cooperative in disclosing information in which there is a justified public interest.</p>
<p>Conclusion</p>
<p>It would be in the interest of building trust and stability in the community if the management changed its policy from doing the minimum required by law to doing the maximum permitted by law. For an organisation with the core purpose of running a web site there really is no excuse for not having all the information on there.</p>
<p>As there seems to be a policy of ignoring discussions in the groups, and insisting on submitting all &#8220;questions&#8221; through &#8216;Contact Us Questions&#8217;, I will submit a copy of this posting in that way, stating that I would like a response to all issues raised, and I will post here any response I will receive.</p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:justify;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-size:100%;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;">FROM CS AMBASSADOR: OH DONNA<br />
PROFILE:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="http://www.couchsurfing.com/profile.html?id=A5IGIA" href="http://www.couchsurfing.com/profile.html?id=A5IGIA" target="_blank">www.couchsurfing.com/profile.html?id=A5IGIA</a></span></p>
<p>RESPONSE:</p>
<p>Hello Norbert<br />
WE have forwarded your email to the General Manager, Matthew Brauer and to CEO, Casey Fenton. Since we don&#8217;t have a legal team on contact us,<span style="color:#ff0000;"> </span><span style="color:#ff0000;"><span style="font-weight:bold;">there is nothing we can do to address your concerns.</span></span> There is a legal group here<a title="http://www.couchsurfing.com/group.html?gid=6208" href="http://www.couchsurfing.com/group.html?gid=6208" target="_blank">www.couchsurfing.com/group.html?gid=6208</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and our lawyers are Matthew Whatley<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="http://taxninja.com/" href="http://taxninja.com/" target="_blank">taxninja.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:justify;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-size:100%;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;"><br />
and Landay and Leblang<a title="http://www.landayleblang.com/" href="http://www.landayleblang.com/" target="_blank"> www.landayleblang.com/</a><br />
</span><span style="font-size:100%;"></span></p>
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<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:justify;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-size:100%;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;"><br />
Hopefully someone will come forward to address your concerns</span></p>
<p>Sincerely</p>
<p>Donna<br />
CouchSurfing Volunteer</p>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-size:13px;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;">Location:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/groups.html?group_category=200">CS Organization</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>&gt;&gt;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group.html?gid=6639">Operations Experts</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>&gt;&gt;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group.html?gid=6208">Legal</a></strong></span></span></p>
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<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a title="Legal Team Coordinator" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile.html?id=A2P">Casey Fenton</a><span style="font-size:7px;"><br />
moderator</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong><span style="font-size:7px;"><br />
Legal Team Coordinator</span></strong></td>
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<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a title="Member Disputes Team Leader" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile.html?id=7A60GP">the rachel</a><strong><span style="font-size:7px;"><br />
Member Disputes Team Leader</span></strong></td>
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<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a title="Volunteer Coordinator" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile.html?id=SHNP">Jim Stone</a><strong><span style="font-size:7px;"><br />
Volunteer Coordinator</span></strong></td>
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<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-size:13px;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;"><strong><br />
</strong></span></p>
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		<title>Still not 501c3</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/still-not-501c3/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/still-not-501c3/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[501c3]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[by desaparecida from Vienna, Austria (Permalink) Hey Niels, in reply to your question: &#8220;Yours ties in with another question: why is it that Couchsurfing International inc. still has not obtained 501c3 status?&#8221; All I know is that the authority responsible for acknowledging 501c3 has difficulties to assess our application because they have no reference case. [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=61&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;">
<div class="meta" style="background-color:rgb(246,249,201);color:rgb(102,102,68);text-align:left;font-family:'courier new';border-color:rgb(208,208,160);border-style:solid;border-width:0 0 1px;margin:auto;padding:2px 5px 3px 6px;">
<div style="text-align:right;">by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/people/desaparecida">desaparecida</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from Vienna, Austria (<a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=429&amp;post=1652509#post1652736">Permalink</a>)</div>
</div>
<div class="description" style="text-align:justify;font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;padding:12px 14px 4px 16px;">Hey Niels,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>in reply to your question: &#8220;Yours ties in with another question: why is it that Couchsurfing International inc. still has not obtained 501c3 status?&#8221;</p>
<p>All I know is that the authority responsible for acknowledging 501c3 has difficulties to assess our application because they have no reference case.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>(Servas is the only other hospitality exchange network under 501c3 but they have already been given the status of a peacekeeping organisation by the United Nations when they applied for 501c3.)</p>
<p>So CouchSurfing has been asked for more information and addtional papers (not financial papers, rather stuff about what we are and background information about the mission, goals&#8230;) at least twice and the authority (i forgot which one) is still evaluating.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>The finances and the organisational structure didn&#8217;t seem to be a problem.</p>
<p>This is what I heard in July in an informal talk.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>Birgit</p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;">
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<div style="text-align:right;"><a href="/profile.html?id=2T7EY7A">Danny Creer</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from Prague, Czech Republic (<a href="./group_read.html?gid=429&amp;post=1652509#post1653246">Permalink</a>)</div>
</div>
<div class="description" style="text-align:justify;font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;padding:12px 14px 4px 16px;">Certainly doesn&#8217;t seem obvious to me. It seems more a case of what you wish to be true. You don&#8217;t know and neither do I, that is what it boils down to, Niels.</p>
<p>I realise talking to you makes no difference as you are part of that amusing &#8220;open couchsurfing&#8221; rabble who have major paranoia issues over the leadership team. I was introduced to your site by a fellow ambassador who surfed with me. I just thought it was an entertaining joke before. It made me chuckle so much.</p>
<p>But yeah, I don&#8217;t know what your beef is and I am really not interested. I know I am not going to make you see sense on here. You just need to realise that there are many other viewpoints than yours. You just seem to think that only yours has truth.</p>
<p>Someone having a differing viewpoint does not make them gullible.</p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:justify;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;">it doesn&#8217;t work that way. Burden of proof is always on the positive. Unless you can prove that what you claim is true, it has to be dismissed. It is about proving, not DISproving. This is one of the major fundamental basics<br />of logical thinking.</p>
<p>As it stands, there is no allegation that they have nothing to disprove. You need to make your case for prosecution first.</p>
<p>As I said, I am not going to change your opinion (even if I wanted to), you just need to learn that that is all it is. Without proof, it is just your opinion.</p>
<p>Once you have your proof, I will study it with great interest and review my basis of thought accordingly. Until then, there is nothing to consider.</span></div>
<p></span></div>
<p></span></p>
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		<title>Apple finally drops NDA</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/apple-finally-drops-nda/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/apple-finally-drops-nda/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apple finally drops NDA]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/tag/nda/ Apple has announced via its Apple Developer Connection website that it has dropped the NDA that has left iPhone developers frustrated since the release of iPhone OS 2.0 this past July. In a note addressed &#8220;To Our Developers,&#8221; Apple finally admitted that the NDA had &#8220;created too much of a burden on developers, authors [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=60&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/tag/nda/">http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/tag/nda/</a></p>
<p>Apple has <a href="http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/" title="To Our Developers">announced</a> via its Apple Developer Connection website that it has dropped the <a href="http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080728-iphone-nda-doing-more-harm-than-good.html" title="Doing more harm than good">NDA</a> that has left iPhone developers frustrated since the release of iPhone OS 2.0 this past July. In a note addressed &#8220;To Our Developers,&#8221; Apple finally admitted that the NDA had &#8220;created too much of a burden on developers, authors and others interested in helping further the iPhone’s success.&#8221;
<p>Apple had, like most companies, attached a nondisclosure agreement to developers that wanted early access to the SDK before iPhone OS 2.0 was released. Nearly everyone involved in iPhone development expected the NDA to be lifted once 2.0 was officially released. Apple unexpectedly kept the NDA in place, however, and offered no explanation to developers—nor did it offer a timetable on when it might be lifted. This caused serious problems for those who had books <a href="http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/09/25/pragmatic-programmers-iphone-sdk-book-latest-casualty-of-nda" title="Pragmatic Programmers iPhone SDK book latest casualty of NDA">ready to be published</a> to help new developers, as well as programmers wanting to post to blogs or forums discussing iPhone programming tips and techniques. The prohibition on blog and forum posts also made it difficult for developers to get help when they run into trouble. </p>
<p>There was a lot of speculation about Apple&#8217;s reasoning for keeping the NDA in place, including slow-moving bureaucracy and sheer ignorance, though <a href="http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/08/08/iphone-sdk-nda-may-be-due-to-patentable-technology" title="iPhone SDK NDA may continue due to patent concerns">protecting IP</a> seemed most reasonable. Apple said in Wednesday&#8217;s note that protecting IP was its reason for keeping the NDA in place. &#8220;We put it in place as one more way to help protect the iPhone from being ripped off by others,&#8221; reads the note. </p>
<p> From what we&#8217;re seeing on Twitter, the collective iPhone developer community couldn&#8217;t be more delighted. &#8220;Ok. I&#8217;m back in on iPhone dev,&#8221; <a href="http://twitter.com/justin/statuses/942029120" title="Twitter">said</a> Second Gear&#8217;s Justin Williams. Jonathan Wight, developer of the TouchCode frameworks, <a href="http://twitter.com/schwa/statuses/942019669" title="Twitter">said</a>, &#8220;I now have a whole bunch of code to put online.&#8221; Addison-Wesley Senior Acquisitions Editor Chuck Toporek, on his way to inform production to start printing <em>The iPhone Developer&#8217;s Cookbook</em>, <a href="http://twitter.com/chuckdude/statuses/942031918" title="Twitter">stopped to say</a>, &#8220;Thank you, thank you, thank you!&#8221; Even one of the NDA&#8217;s most fervent detractors, Twitterrific developer Craig Hockenberry, <a href="http://twitter.com/chockenberry/statuses/942050738" title="Twitter">joked</a>, &#8220;The downside, of course, is that I need to find something else to be bitter about. Anyone want to get on my lawn?&#8221; </p>
<p> &#8220;I think this will really open the floodgates for iPhone development. An open exchange between developers is crucial on any platform, and with the shackles off, iPhone will flourish,&#8221; says Ben Gottlieb, developer of Crosswords for iPhone. &#8220;Kudos for Apple to listening to the developer community and adjusting their position. Any increase in transparency is a welcome change, and hopefully this is a sign of more good things to come,&#8221; he tells Ars. </p>
<p> Though Apple has said nothing about the recent issues regarding App Store rejections, this is certainly a major step toward <a href="http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080928-apples-app-store-schizophrenia-driving-developers-crazy.html">regaining developers&#8217; trust</a>. Of course, Apple will still keep unreleased versions of the iPhone OS and beta SDKs under NDA. But as with Mac OS X, iPhone developers are free to publicly discuss any APIs or other features in released versions. This will certainly go a long way towards maintaining a large and vibrant developer community. </p>
<p>  The NDA&#8217;s demise also means that we can finally run our in-depth probe into the iPhone SDK. Look for it this evening.</p>
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		<title>Why Couchsurfing vouching sucks</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/why-couchsurfing-vouching-sucks/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/why-couchsurfing-vouching-sucks/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Couchsurfing .vouching]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[(Permalink) I have a problem which may actually not be a big problem. Up to now I have about 12 hosting/surfing experiences which I thought was successful.In a very popular city with just 3 hosts, I had an experience which confused me. XXX was definitely a great host with a good character. In his large [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=59&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;">(<a href="./group_read.html?gid=1075&amp;post=1629238">Permalink</a>)</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;color:#000000;"></p>
<div class="description" style="text-align:justify;font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;padding:12px 14px 4px 16px;">I have a problem which may actually not be a big problem. Up to now I have about 12 hosting/surfing experiences which I thought was successful.In a very popular city with just 3 hosts, I had an experience which confused me. XXX was definitely a great host with a good character. In his large house he kindly accommodated an unlimited number of surfers for an unlimited time. Some of them stayed more than 4 months.</div>
<p></span></p>
<p>I like comfortable places and was shocked as I found out that there were 10 surfers and sometimes even more. All the rooms needed to be shared and at that time this site didn&#8217;t have the option yet to place shared room/surfing space yes and no. Sharing the bathroom with 12 people was a living nightmare since I&#8217;m not too much into share accommodation either.My main intention is to immerse in cultures and I prefer locals much more than tourist surfers.</p>
<p>The worse situation was that I had a back injury and I had to sleep on the floor without a mattress. Moreover, I was used to focus on one host or family and became totally confused with so many surfers. After being deprived from sleep for 5 nights I possibly became cranky and tense. The other surfers were not very understanding for my situation. However, we were polite to each other and everybody had a turn to cook.</p>
<p>It was high season and especially in this area the hotels tend to take advantage of you and the budget hotels were fully booked many weeks in advance. I&#8217;m not into dorms in hostels.</p>
<p>I noticed some tension from the host too although I appreciated him as a person and we definitely had something to talk about. He tried to be friendly and offered me to drive me to the hotel if I find one. As I finally found something in a smaller town(I&#8217;m a lover of uninterrupted nature) he wasn&#8217;t enthusiastic either.</p>
<p>Sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish who is your friend and who is not, this especially holds true for couchsurfing. I sent a friend link much too late because I was intrigued with some other hosts and pushed him onto the backburner. He declined it and wrote no reference.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p>I thought he was a kind host who simply doesn&#8217;t meet my expectations and me a good guest who doesn&#8217;t suit(maybe) his expectations. Probably for the first time it didn&#8217;t click like with all my other hosts/guests. He told me before about some &#8220;fuckshit&#8221; ppl among the guests and he told them to f&#8230;.o&#8230;&#8230;.Oh&#8230;thank God he didn&#8217;t tell me to do it because it took a while to find an apartment.</p>
<p>My question: Shall I contact him and ask why he refused the reference and friend link or shall I take it as it is. I will never return to his couch or even his city anymore, so friendshp wouldn&#8217;t make sense at all. He left many references like this:&#8221;XX is nice and fits into every house.&#8221; Of course I don&#8217;t fit into every house and he would lie if he gives me a reference like that. In precarious situations I have enough means to go for a good budget hotel.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m happy with some strong references and vouches, all from verified members and ambassadors. I just applied for ambassadorship for the mature-aged people and need at least 10 successful hosting/surfing experiences. With his reference it would have been 12.</p>
<p>So any ideas on such a situation? Such a dilemma may happen to me as a host too.</p>
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		<title>Looking beyond Alaska</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/looking-beyond-alaska/</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Looking beyond Alaska]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[August 20th, 2008 by mandie &#124; Posted in Planning The Alaska Collective is in its final days. People are packing up, cleaning has started and others are still hammering away at their computers to finish off projects. So as this Collective draws to a close, its only appropriate that we share what is next for [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=58&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
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<div class="post" id="post-63">
<h2 style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:700;margin:0 auto;padding:0;"><a href="http://blog.couchsurfing.com/alaska/looking-beyond-alaska" rel="bookmark" title="Looking beyond Alaska"><br /></a></h2>
<p>August 20th, 2008 by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong>mandie</strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>| Posted in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://blog.couchsurfing.com/alaska/category/planning" title="View all posts in Planning" rel="category tag">Planning</a>
<p>The Alaska Collective is in its final days. People are packing up, cleaning has started and others are still hammering away at their computers to finish off projects. So as this Collective draws to a close, its only appropriate that we share what is next for CouchSurfing.</p>
<p><span></span></p>
<p>This year, with both the Thailand Collective and our current Alaska Collective, CouchSurfing has benefited from the help of 15-20 full-time volunteers and staff for over 8 consecutive months. Several of these talented professionals have volunteered for CS that entire time, working without pay for the love of CouchSurfing.</p>
<p>In Thailand, we began to build our expert volunteer teams, we made many new tools for volunteer productivity, and we made our website scalable for the 1 million CS members we’ll have by the year’s end. In Alaska, we’ve focused on improvements to member features, such as the reference system improvements, a new chat system, improved safety features and soon-to-be-released communication news channels.</p>
<p>With this Collective ending, CouchSurfing was faced with the question: what’s next? Great ideas are pouring in from members and we have so much on our to-do list. How can we retain the talented full-time volunteers we’ve enjoyed for these many months?</p>
<p>Now it’s time for CS to take the big next step.</p>
<p><strong>* ANNOUNCING CS BASE CAMP!</strong></p>
<p>Currently, our very talented scout,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.couchsurfing.com/pinkfish" target="_blank">Pinkfish</a>, who found our dream location in Pai, Thailand, as well as this amazing house in Homer, Alaska, is searching for a living and office space to house fifteen full-time volunteers and staff for the next 12 months in the San Francisco Bay Area, California.</p>
<p>We’re calling this location ‘Base Camp’ because it will be our long-term volunteer training base and launch spot for future CS Collectives around the globe. Base Camp will allow us to recruit the best talent in the world, ensure that CS is right for them, then send them off to join Collectives already in progress. Base Camp will also provide a stable place to plan and support the remote Collectives. We’ll be able to start one Collectives as another ends, and we will eventually maintain multiple continuous Collectives on several continents, accessible for most CS members.</p>
<p>While Collectives inspire the commitment of volunteers and staff members who want the adventure of traveling the world for CS, Base Camp will also attract those who have families or jobs and who need a stable location to participate.</p>
<p><strong></strong></p>
<p><strong>* WHY CALIFORNIA?</strong></p>
<p>We are an international community, and that’s why we will continue to hold international Collectives. CouchSurfing takes place in home around the world, and Base Camp will be just one of our centers of activity.</p>
<p>California offers CS many resources for a long-term location. The SF Bay Area is known worldwide as a center for innovative web companies as well as charity organizations that are changing the world &#8211; which means CS will fit right in. We’ll have help from some of the smartest minds who have already made the SF Bay area their home, and many free recourses for non-profits.</p>
<p>Another advantage is all of the CouchSurfers who live there. Of the cities with the largest total number of CouchSurfers, San Francisco is in top ten. And of all large cities, SF has more CouchSurfing members per capita than any other city in the world. Did you know that 1 in every 200 San Francisco residents is a CouchSurfer? SF loves CS!<br /><strong></strong></p>
<p><strong>* WHAT’S NEXT?</strong></p>
<p>The first step is to find our new home. Pinkfish has already enlisted the support of the SF Bay Area community to help us find the right location and set it up. Before we move in, we’ll post the available volunteer roles at Base Camp and at the next Collective that will most likely begin in November. Maybe one of these roles has your name on it!</p>
<p>We have so much we want to accomplish, and Base Camp will allow us to do those things more efficiently than ever before. Adding new features, building community, bringing much more information and stories to members, supporting large member events such as this summer’s CouchCrash in New York City, making it easier to surf and host, and giving our Ambassadors more support.</p>
<p>With so much to do, we’re excited for the opportunity to continue the progress we’re making in Alaska without break through the next year and beyond.</p>
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		<title>Cock-Surrfing Experience</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/cock-surrfing-experience/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/cock-surrfing-experience/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cock-Surrfing Experience]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[I remember an ambassador in Brasil (who shall remain nameless) discussing the &#8220;Cock-Surrfing Experience&#8221; back in May.http://www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=2125&#38;post=1594422<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=57&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember an ambassador in Brasil (who shall remain nameless) discussing the &#8220;Cock-Surrfing Experience&#8221; back in May.<br /><a href="http://www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=2125&amp;post=1594422">http://www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=2125&amp;post=1594422</a></p>
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		<title>Inactive &amp; Retired Ambassadors Poor undefined procedures in the virtual power play</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/inactive-retired-ambassadors-poor-undefined-procedures-in-the-virtual-power-play/</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Ambassadors]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Posted September 25th, 2008 &#8211; 2:03 am by Roy Abraham from Toronto, Canada (Permalink)Hey everyone, just a bit of rambling here&#8230; I&#8217;m sure many of you have come across the occasional CS Amb who&#8217;s been inactive for a long while. Just wondering, what sort of peer review system do we have to ensure quality. IE. [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=56&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Posted September 25th, 2008 &#8211; 2:03 am by Roy Abraham from Toronto, Canada (Permalink)<br />Hey everyone, just a bit of rambling here&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure many of you have come across the occasional CS Amb who&#8217;s been inactive for a long while. Just wondering, what sort of peer review system do we have to ensure quality. IE. that Ambs are actively participating members?</p>
<p>Sure, life gets in the way sometimes! When I moved to Canada last year I &#8220;retired&#8221; from being an Amb for a few months &#8211; life was too busy and it would have been hypocritical of me to be a CS Amb but not do CS Amb duties. And sometimes people just burn out and need a break! That&#8217;s completely fair. (I enjoyed the break and now I more passionate about CS then ever <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My impression (which could be totally wrong) of the system is that this aspect is self-policed. It would be a shame if we got to a stage where we have numerous dormant Ambs (esp. if they are Country/Global).</p>
<p>However, if Ambs want to &#8220;retire&#8221;, I don&#8217;t think they should lose credit for their hard work. I think we should give anyone who needs to take 3 months or more off a &#8220;Retired Amb&#8221; flag &#8211; just as a sign of appreciation. </p>
<p>I wonder if some Ambs are inactive but not officially retired, simply because they want to retain that pretty yellow flag <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Your thoughts?</p>
<p>Posted September 25th, 2008 &#8211; 9:26 am by -MARTINE- from Brugge, Belgium (Permalink)<br />Best is to talk/mail to your country ambassador and if there is none, to your designated global ambassador.</p>
<p>Please read more on these interesting conversations we had about this matter here:<br />www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=1668&amp;post=1253239</p>
<p>and here<br />www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=1668&amp;post=1092244</p>
<p>As a country amb, every 3 or 4 months I personally send a letter to ALL the ambs of my country, to ask if they are still willing to perform their &#8220;duties&#8221; as an ambassador.<br />If they wish not too, or they haven&#8217;t been active in the last 30 days on CS at all, we can contact the AMT to have their amb status removed.</p>
<p>Posted September 25th, 2008 &#8211; 11:53 am by Roy Abraham from Toronto, Canada (Permalink)<br />Martine, that&#8217;s pretty amazing that you can find old threads even when there&#8217;s no search function here <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>So then are global ambs supposed to send country ambs a renewal letter then? And do admins send global ambs renewal letters? I don&#8217;t recall ever getting a renewal letter when I was a city or country amb. But I did get one when I switched to nomadic&#8230; </p>
<p>And is it real quality control to only ask if they want to continue performing their &#8220;duties&#8221;?</p>
<p>Posted September 25th, 2008 &#8211; 12:50 pm by Flapic from Rome, Italy (Permalink)<br />Roy,</p>
<p>the procedure is not well defined yet, but I know that the AMT is working on it.</p>
<p>Personally, I have just completed the 2nd renewal (last was in March) of the Country Ambs from the part of Europe I am following (IT, SP, PT, SLO), and those who renewed are going to start a similar process in their countries to renew the City Ambs.</p>
<p>And all Globals renew in a similar way under supervision of Promitheus about twice a year.</p>
<p>Ciao<br />Flavio</p>
<p>Posted 2 days ago by Promitheus from Norwich, United Kingdom (Permalink)<br />I like the idea of the &#8220;retired Amb&#8221; &#8211; it&#8217;s low priority but it will be brought in the front once more high priority things are done:) (just to give you an idea about how long things take some times&#8230; I was discussing initially this issue with MrRico from Montreal exactly one year ago &#8230; on the 27 of September 2007&#8230;) </p>
<p>Renewals are happening in several countries right now but we are not in a position to handle any results in any automated manner &#8230; this is why we are not asking from all Country or Global Ambs to run them&#8230;</p>
<p>Also we start having a couple of tools for monitoring Ambs. They could be a bit of more automated but at least for the time they provide us a list with the Ambs that have not logged in for 1 month. We are emailing those fellas and removing their status if we do not get a satisfactory response in 1 week (2 weeks for nomadic Ambs).</p>
<p>Hopefully more tools will be added gradually&#8230; <br /><a href="http://www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=2125&amp;post=1608729"><br />http://www.couchsurfing.com/group_read.html?gid=2125&amp;post=1608729</a></p>
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		<title>Project Open hospitality club</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/project-open-hospitality-club/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/project-open-hospitality-club/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 03:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[open hospitality club]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[openhospitalityclub]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Project “Reuniting the Community”]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Published by Kasper Souren on September 28, 2008 in Hospitality Club.Tags: hospitality club, veit.A lot of the stuff BW is based on (money, texts, layout &#8211; see above) was taken away from HC and HC volunteers who worked on it for a long time without their permission. We will try to bring this stuff home [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=55&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/28/project-reuniting-the-community/">Published</a> by Kasper Souren on September 28, 2008 in Hospitality Club.<br />Tags: hospitality club, veit.<br />A lot of the stuff BW is based on (money, texts, layout &#8211; see above) was taken away from HC and HC volunteers who worked on it for a long time without their permission. We will try to bring this stuff home and reunite the community. Since BW advertises having a “democratic” setup we will happily work together with them using this framework for the best of the community in our reunification efforts. And you can help us! Here’s how Project “Reuniting the Community” works:</p>
<p>Texts and code are copied, not taken away.    And above all, they should be copied if people want to copy them.<br />Money can’t be taken away from a non-existing organization.<br />I love the idea of reuniting the Community.</p>
<p>Phase 1: Right now, we are encouraging active HC volunteers to join BeVolunteer as “members”. BV currently has 45 members (see the irony of calling a network run by 45 people “democratic”?), a few of them are absolutely dedicated to HC. You have to jump through a few loops to be accepted by their “Board of directors” as a member, but the fun should be worth it. Basically, you just have to be an “active volunteer”, so just edit around the wiki a bit, join some of the many many discussions in their Forums, or translate a few sentences. Once you are a member, just let us know. We will reimburse you for any “membership fees” you have to pay to BV once the project has succeeded.</p>
<p>There are no membership fees, not even to become a member of the BoD.<br />Democracy is not a black and white question, but to me it’s a network ran by a single person is the least ideal form (i.e. HC).</p>
<p>Phase 2: We will make sure that HC-friendly people are elected to BV’s “Board of Directors” &#8211; the 9 people running the show (kind of interesting model of democracy). They could start making sure that links back to HC are added, and BW as organization stops its aggressive attacks on HC.</p>
<p>People’s profiles (like mine) are deleted for links from HC to BW…</p>
<p>Phase 3: The final step will be to reintegrate BW into HC, a simple “General Assembly” decision will be enough for that. Since both will be based on open-source software then, it won’t be too big of a problem. We might even continue to use their officially registered French NGO as the HC-NGO in France. And all will be good <br />Sounds like fun? Then help us, or get in touch if you need more info and encouragement!</p>
<p>Great, finally an official organization for Hospitality Club!</p>
<p>See <a href="http://openhospitalityclub.org/">openhospitalityclub.org</a> for a 1 page overview of the issues with HC.</p>
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		<title>Hospitality Club founder Veit Kühne attacks bewelcome</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/hospitality-club-founder-veit-kuhne-attacks-bewelcome/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/hospitality-club-founder-veit-kuhne-attacks-bewelcome/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 03:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[bewelcome]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[site wars]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Veit Kühne]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Veit Kuehne]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Hospitality Club founder Veit Kühne attacks bewelcome As posted on the bewelcome forums. Hi guys, we finally found time to publish our side of the story. If you are interested in the real background of BW, check out: http://www.bewelcome.info Have fun reading! yeah, we like to spend our time more productively on HC as well [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=54&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-size:100%;">Hospitality Club founder </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:center;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=veit">Veit</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"> Kühne attacks bewelcome</p>
<p>As posted on the <span style="font-weight:bold;">bewelcome forums</span>.</p>
<p></span><br />
<blockquote><span style="font-size:100%;">Hi guys, we finally found time to publish our side of the story. If you are interested in the real background of BW, check out:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bewelcome.info/">http://www.bewelcome.info</a></p>
<p>Have fun reading!</p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;">
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>yeah, we like to spend our time more productively on HC as well rather than writing such a text (like it says on the page), but this time it was a real necessity, since BW folks have poured so much s**t over HC and me in the last years that we had to set the record straight. Took us over 2 years to write this text..<span style="font-weight:bold;color:rgb(255,0,0);">.generally we do concentrate on the real work on HC.</span></p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">And about comparisons with &#8220;real life politics&#8221;: I grew up in a country called &#8220;German Democratic Republic&#8221;&#8230;I am still quite allergic to ppl calling something democratic which really is just a joke.</p>
<p></span><span style="font-size:100%;">cc<br /></span></p></blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"> From the opencouchsurfing.org site<br /></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(68,68,68);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:-1px;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:'Trebuchet MS';font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/26/wwwbewelcomeinfo-the-real-background/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link to &quot;www.BeWelcome.info - the real background!&quot;">www.BeWelcome.info &#8211; the real background!</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br />Published by veit??<br />This blog is mostly run by BW-lovers with a clear agenda (</span><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0);font-size:100%;">make CS </span><span style="font-size:100%;">and HC look bad so their “oh-so-moral” alternative looks attractive). For all others, who still have</span><span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;"> a somewhat open mind</span><span style="font-size:100%;"> and don’t fall so easily for Kasper &amp; Co’s constant propaganda, here a link to our side of the story:</p>
<p>http://www.bewelcome.info</p>
<p>The real background about this “democratic, transparent, legal” (sic) network.<br /></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span>
<div id="toc__inside">
<ul class="toc">
<li class="level1">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#www.bewelcome.info" class="toc">www.Bewelcome.info</a></span></div>
<ul class="toc">
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#why_these_pages" class="toc">Why these pages?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#most_important_facts" class="toc">Most important facts</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#democratic" class="toc">Democratic?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="toc">Transparent?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#legal_foundation" class="toc">Legal Foundation?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="toc">Theft</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#groupthink" class="toc">Groupthink</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#why_are_they_attacking_hc_all_the_time" class="toc">Why are they attacking HC all the time?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#effects_on_hc" class="toc">Effects on HC</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#does_the_world_need_another_network" class="toc">Does the world need another network?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#little_known_facts" class="toc">Little Known Facts</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#how_to_deal_with_them" class="toc">How to deal with them</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#main_characters" class="toc">Main Characters</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#project_reuniting_the_community" class="toc">Project &#8220;Reuniting the Community&#8221;</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#your_voice" class="toc">Your Voice</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#what_do_you_think" class="toc">What do you think?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#how_you_can_help" class="toc">How you can help</a></span></div>
</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul></div>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p><a href="http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?domain=www.bewelcome.info">http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?domain=www.bewelcome.info</a><br /></span>
<pre><span style="font-size:100%;">Registrant Name:Veit KuehneRegistrant Organization:Registrant Street1:Augustusweg 59Registrant Street2:Registrant Street3:Registrant City:RadebeulRegistrant State/Province:Registrant Postal Code:01445Registrant Country:DERegistrant Phone:+49.01737749365Registrant Phone Ext.:Registrant FAX:Registrant FAX Ext.:Registrant **********@hospitalityclub.orgAdmin ID:GODA-232649094Admin Name:Veit KuehneAdmin Organization:Admin Street1:Augustusweg 59Admin Street2:Admin Street3:Admin City:RadebeulAdmin State/Province:Admin Postal Code:01445Admin Country:DEAdmin Phone:+49.01737749365Admin Phone Ext.:Admin FAX:Admin FAX Ext.:Admin **********@hospitalityclub.orgBilling ID:GODA-332649094Billing Name:Veit KuehneBilling Organization:Billing Street1:Augustusweg 59Billing Street2:Billing Street3:Billing City:RadebeulBilling State/Province:Billing Postal Code:01445Billing Country:DEBilling Phone:+49.01737749365Billing Phone Ext.:Billing FAX:Billing FAX Ext.:Billing **********@hospitalityclub.orgTech ID:GODA-132649094Tech Name:Veit KuehneTech Organization:Tech Street1:Augustusweg 59

</span></pre>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(99,140,156);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:12px;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:'Lucida Grande';"><br /></span></p>
<p><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info?do=revisions">http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info?do=revisions</a><br />These are the older revisions of the current document. To revert to an old revision, select it from below, click Edit this page and save it.</p>
<p>2008/09/26 19:03  bewelcome.info – published veit (current)<br />2008/04/24 14:48  bewelcome.info – created veit</p>
<p>About </span><span class="text" style="font-size:100%;">Veit Kühne</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span><span class="text" style="font-size:100%;">The Hospitality Club was started in 2000 and has spread quickly around the globe by making full use of the Internet. Its founder, Veit Kühne from Germany, spent a year as an AFS exchange student in the USA and is a volunteer for this large intercultural learning organization. The Hospitality Club invites anyone who would like to see the internet become a platform for a large hospitality exchange network to try it out for themselves. </span><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p></span><br />
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.hospitalityclub.org/veit/indexeng.htm" class="l"><em>Veit Kühne</em></a></span></h3>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span><br />
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.hospitalityguide.net/hg/wiki/index.php?title=BeWelcome" class="l">Hosp.Ex Ne&gt;&gt;t &#8211; | Wiki :: BeWelcome &#8211; HospitalityGuide.net</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://wordpress.com/tag/veit/" class="l"><em>Veit</em>   on WordPress</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.whois.ws/whois-org/hospitalityclub.org/" class="l">hospitalityclub.org &#8211; Who.is</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_Club" class="l">Hospitality Club &#8211; Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/451/852" class="l"><em>Veit Kuehne</em> [<em>veit</em>@hospitalityclub.org] &#8211; LinkedIn</a></span></h3>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.freewebs.com/toniwalia/">http://www.freewebs.com/toniwalia/</a><br /></span>
<dl class="clearfix">
<dd class="result_network"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.new.facebook.com/s.php?k=100000080&amp;id=502860070" class="url fn">Veit Kuehne facebook </a></span></dd>
</dl>
<p><span class="text" style="font-size:100%;">Veit Kühne    <a href="mailto:veit@hospitalityclub.org">veit@hospitalityclub.org</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p>I was very active in the hc forum until babso decided to destroy it. This is the first time we talk to each other.<br />I am so sad to realize that the charges I heard against you were true. Sad for hc mainly, such a big well intended organization with so many nice members deserve a better owner than you. You are a poor little man. The only solution to hc is that you resign from it and a new foundation takes place.<br />Why are you so afraid of democracy and transparency? Your reunite solution shows everything. It will happen the contrary to what you expect. Democracy and transparency make us stronger and not weaker as you think. The problem with you is that you do not believe in democracy and transparency. The question is why. Afraid to loose your position? Loose money? We could talk about how to improve our ways in terms of democracy and transparency, but your solution consists on a personal tirany. Follow veit, as tilman says.</p>
<p>Answering you.<br />DEMOCRACY. It is true that only BV members can vote. But at least, there is a votation. Know what? This is what happens in al democracies in the world. Only elected people can vote. And there are elections from time to time. However, you gave me an idea about how to improve democracy in BW, perhaps the BW members could vote some way. Let&#8217;s think about it.<br />Your hipocracy: there is nothing like this in HC, and you don&#8217;t want this for HC.</p>
<p>TRANSPARENCY. Only the discussions among BV members are hidden. The decissions along with the reasons are public. However, there is a process going on. Many volunteers want to make everything public. Although I am not of this opinion, I have nothing so strong against it. Listen to how BW members can participate in the discussions. I am in the support team, similar to the hc email team. (yes, Claudia is my chief, nice woman btw) When I receive a suggestion, I open a discussion about it in the volunteers forum and invite the member who suggested that to participate in the discussion. It is all opened for that person. The decissions are taken by majority, as the member can check. If I receive a complain, I do the same, the member who complains totally participates in the discussion. If a member needs information, I give all information available. All around our economy is public. Perhaps we should go to total transparency, who knows, we are discussing it and still have no final decission.<br />Your hipocracy: Compare with HC.</p>
<p>You are wrong about BW faqs:</p>
<p>HC FAQ: Is joining really free? Yes. We will never charge a membership fee. There will be no costs to you. We do ask you to dedicate some time if you can and help us make The Hospitality Club better and better.<br />BW FAQ: Is joining really free? Yes. We will never charge a membership fee. There will be no costs to you. We do ask you to dedicate some time if you can and help us make BeWelcome a better and better site.<br />Wrong, the BW FAQ is: is joining free of charge? And the answer is:<br />Joining is free and we will never charge a membership fee. There will be no required costs to you at all. However, we do ask you to dedicate some time, if you can, and help us make BeWelcome a better site.</p>
<p>HC Email Team FAQ: Why are couples required to fill in two profiles?<br />Actually, it was both a technical as well as an organizational decision. We listened closely to experiences from Servas and they had had many problems when couples split or the entry in the host list could not be filled in for both (not just male/female, also different interests, occupations etc.). Therefore we decided to ask couples to sign for individual accounts, if they both want to log into the site. You can, of course, trust each other or mention the other in your profile. […]<br />BW FAQ: Why are couples required to fill in two profiles?<br />Actually, it was both a technical as well as an organisational decision. We listened closely to experiences from Servas and they had had many problems when couples split or the entry in the host list could not be filled in for both (not just male/female, also different interests, occupations etc.). Therefore we decided to ask couples to sign up for individual accounts, if they both want to log into the site. […] You can, of course, trust each other or mention the other in your profile.</p>
<p>Wrong. The BW FAQ is:Why are couples required to register separately? And the answer is:</p>
<p>First of all, it is difficult to keep profiles &#8216;clean&#8217; if they refer to multiple persons. Secondly, groups often travel or host separately and therefore need individual profiles in order to clarify contact information and comments written about individuals. We also have taken into account the experience of Servas, a hospitality website that has had many problems when couples split. We therefore have decided to ask people to sign up for individual accounts if they both want to log into the site. You can show your relation with your partner or roomate by using the &#8216;Add Relation&#8217; tool in your Actions toolbox. Thus your profile picture will be connected to your friend or partner&#8217;s profile and vice versa. Still, you will have two independent accounts for practical purposes.</p>
<p>The questions and answers are not the same. I suppose that you are not the owner of the ideas, eh? And anyway, this is a normal way of functioning when you try to put people in touch. So please try to go to the courts for this. You will loose for sure.</p>
<p>There are charges in your bewelcome.info that I cannot give an answer. I was not there when it happened. Please, I am asking the people involved in these charges to give an answer. Please trust in democracy and transparency and give your view of it. Perhaps you are tired of this story and think only in the future, same as me. But this charges are now in the BW forum, so an answer is a must.</p>
<p>Veit, I am aware of your intention. You think that you set the battlefield into BW, and this will weaken us. You will be defeated. Having a democratic and transparent way of functioning is not a risk, as you will realize soon.</p>
<p>Actually, I was digging up <a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.0">http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.0</a> posted January last year by Veit. In the thread Veit asks some questions (closely related to some of the points on www.bewelcome.info) and Guaka, JY, Lupochen, hkroger and Pietshah all give some answers.</p>
<p>Here is my two cents about your groupthink. I must say I did had fun while writing this.</p>
<p>&#8220;Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.&#8221;<br />Have you ever had a look to our discussions? Probably not, so you write this with lack of knowledge. Just the bravery of the ignorant. Well, they are long and full of different opinions.</p>
<p>This is you! This is exactly why you do not open hc to any small democratic change. You are afraid! However BW-BV is openwide. Yes, perhaps you could put into practice your reunity challenge. It is theoretically possible.</p>
<p>This is you again! Almost nobody in hc knows how hc is ruled. It is plenty of false assumptions. As for democracy and transparency is concerned, we recognize our limitations and we are ready to talk about it.</p>
<p>This is hc again! Based on false assumptions. If you had a look to our discussions you will realize that we question everything.</p>
<p>Yes, this is true in your case. Have fun! However, we are ready to discuss with you, look at the answers you are getting.</p>
<p>This is you again! How many people have you expulsed of hc already? How much censorship? You will see, nobody will press you here or censor you.<br />By the way, do you think I am being hard to you? Yes, I am! I am having fun! But you started this, so why can I not go on having fun?</p>
<p>Oh yes, I am self censoring me so much&#8230; have fun!</p>
<p>Oh no, we know exactly who is after or against a proposition. And the reasons everyone has. Again this is the bravery of the ignorant.</p>
<p>This must be my position, I guess. Be careful people, I will punish you if you don&#8217;t obey me. Have fun!</p>
<p>Now, let&#8217;s have a look to veit&#8217;s ass lickers.<br />What irritates me most was when BW was getting started or had already started, some of the so called &#8216;founder members&#8217; who were still in HC, tried to brainwash me by tell me all those lies. I did not know the stories then but I felt that since they were trying so hard to get me “on Board” their website, there must be something not right. Looking back, all what they told me were lies. Moral wise, BW founder members, who jumped ship [HC] because of money are without fiber. I still laugh of any mention of BW as a &#8216;non-site&#8217;. Fact, I have more HC members in my city of Warsaw than BW has in the whole world. What a laugh. Although I maintain a profile in BW. I have never logged in regularly and have never hosted anyone form there. toniwalia (HC member with most comments, active volunteer in Warsaw and Forum)</p>
<p>In 2006 when I started volunteering. The discussions about Bewelcome were very, shall we say prevailing. Everybody was talking about Bewelcome. That was also the time when I met many key vols personally. I talked many hours with claudia in Aschaffenburg (I visited her), with Kjell, with Simon, etc. My intention was to hear all opinions, extract the facts, and then make the decision into which project I shall put my energies.<br />The arguments I heard from you Bewelcome guys sounded very strong but I DID NOT FIND any evidence for them! I saw what Veit had done. I tried to imagine how I would organize the club if I would found it today. And I would do it just the way Veit did it! I saw that the democratic model of Bewelcome is simply not a good way to organize such a project. Ok, it is difficult now to prove it (we will see in the future) but all evidence I had suggested that hc has the best chances of being successful in the long term.<br />Of course I saw also the many problems hc had (and has). But I concluded that if we all put our energies into working WITH veit (and yes, for the Hospitality Club) instead of working against him, then hc has the best chances! I don&#8217;t see any chances for Bewelcome. tilman (active meeting organizer, Email Team and Volunteer Coordinator)</p>
<p>Well, we are reaching Warsaw in terms of members. As toniwalia thinks only in numbers, he will be soon a bw volunteer! What a laugh, but I will welcome him.And tilman expressed well what&#8217;s hc about, a non democratic by own decission, leader directed group. Tilman is a pearl!</p>
<p>Sorry, veit, but you put them as examples, didn&#8217;t you? Ok, let&#8217;s analize this in terms of that &#8220;groupthink&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;But I concluded that if we all put our energies into working WITH veit (and yes, for the Hospitality Club) instead of working against him, then hc has the best chances!&#8221;</p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=1013924">Warning about systematic censorship on the HC forum</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=487259">how bad treats Hospitalityclub its members/volunteers</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=542120">HC/CS meeting censorship&#8230;</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=747361">we had to terminate your membership to protect other members and our network</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><br />
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<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=28">Check out the original!!</a></td>
<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile.html?id=CU17F">Veit Kuehne</a></td>
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<p></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=209733">Why are some HospitalityClub members&#8230;inhospitable?</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=104818">hcvolunteers.org</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;">
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=thorgal67">thorgal67</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/27 20:30</p>
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<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Wow, quite a debate <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  and I see some contributors are already enjoying themselves, hehe.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Firstly, I agree that we should try and keep this discussion civilized and not too personal (even though the accusations on the BW.info page are quite uncivilized and very personal).</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Feel free to keep discussing and clarifying both points of the discussion, although I feel I have to give my side of the story.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">I have worked quite closely with Veit and I think I know the way he manages to use words as propaganda for his own projects. If you check the BW.info page, you will see there are no links to BW (so no proof, just some alleged copy+paste) but only to&#8230; HC and Wikipedia.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">It would have been so easy to publish links, since 95% of our wiki is completely open (just the &#8216;abuse cases&#8217; are not visible), all of our BeWelcome forum is open (where the real debates take place) and getting access to the BeVolunteer forum is also a piece of cake&#8230;just ask).</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">But no, it is easier for him to paste stuff that is 2 years old and take it out of context&#8230;.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Anyway, I have written down my views and hopefully some facts that might shed some light. Since I don&#8217;t want to clutter this forum, I published it in my personal name on my blog :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusations-by-veit-owner-of-hc">Veit&#8217;s Accusations</a></p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">I will try to answer all of Veit&#8217;s accusations, just give me some time as I&#8217;ll be traveling the next week.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Veit, will you please publish my responses in full on your wiki ?</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">peace and blue skies,</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Frank</p>
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<div class="bSmallHead" style="background-image:url(http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/skins/terrafirma/img/a22.gif);background-repeat:repeat-x;position:relative;background-position:50% 100%;margin:0 0 20px;padding:0 0 10px 10px;">
<h2 class="bTitle" style="font-family:Georgia,'Lucida Sans Unicode',Tahoma,Arial,serif;position:relative;top:4px;font-size:18px;line-height:25px;color:rgb(101,101,81);margin:0;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusations-by-veit-owner-of-hc">Accusations by Veit, owner of HC</a></h2>
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<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">2 days ago Veit, owner of an hospitality exchange network called Hospitality Club (HC), published a document on a website called<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://bewelcome.info/">BeWelcome.info</a>. This document accuses and attacks another Hospitality Exchange network called<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bewelcome.org/">BeWelcome</a>. Since Veit has made it clear that he believes there should only be one single hospitality exchange network (in this case HC), this might explain the harsh criticism and attacks that he publishes on the .INFO page. Whether it justifies buying a domain that is almost the same as BeWelcome.org, is another question. But since he used to own Couchsurfing.info for quite some time, it shouldn&#8217;t surprise anyone of the kind of tactics he uses.</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">I feel that the BW.INFO page contains many inaccuracies, half-truths, lies and lots of propaganda (in favour of HC). To me it is quite clear what the intention is of Veit : throw mud and hope that some of it will stick.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br />The best proof is that he makes many accusations, but fails to put even one single link towards the proof. There are in fact only two links in his whole document : one to a wikipedia page, and one to Hospitality Club<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">Since I feel that Veit personally attacked me and a project that I love dearly, I decided to answer him here. I will give my personal opinion about his views, and will try to provide facts and proof (with links!) to show that he has written his accusations because he wants to hurt BeWelcome.</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">Just before we start: There is one fact that we cannot deny:<br />Veit already made these accusations a long time ago, exactly 1 year ago (11/9/2007). You can read his accusations and the answers here :<a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229">http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229</a></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">So here we go : Part 1 :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusation-1-faq-texts">BW has stolen Texts from HC Teams</a><br />Let&#8217;s hope Veit has the courage to publish a link to our replies in his BW.info</p>
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<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(58,58,58);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:18px;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;">
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<li><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusation-1-faq-texts">Accusation 1 : FAQ Texts</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusations-by-veit-owner-of-hc">Accusations by Veit, owner of HC</a></li>
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<p>&#8220;they had stolen and used the complete HC Redesign&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;it is clearly based on the Redesign&#8221;</p>
<p>(from http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft)</p>
<p>well, decide for yourself how complete the rip-off is: http://benn.org/gallery/v/hc_redesign/</p>
<p> <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>i would go for the term &#8220;inspired&#8221; or &#8220;re-cycled&#8221;. some related quotes:</p>
<p>&#8220;In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person&#8217;s property without that person&#8217;s freely-given consent.&#8221; &#8212; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft</p>
<p>&#8220;Such a culture would be, by default, permissive of efforts to improve upon, change, integrate, or otherwise remix the work of copyright holders. Lessig presents this as a desirable ideal and argues, among other things, that the health, progress, and wealth creation of a culture is fundamentally tied to this participatory remix process.&#8221; &#8212; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remix_culture</p>
<p>&#8220;Helping your neighbour is now considered the moral equivalent of attacking a ship. [...] Society cannot survive the loss of humanity&#8217;s ability to share&#8221; &#8212; Richard Stallman</p>
<p>what is my point? welcome to the 21st century. be inspired by your fellow humans, be generous and don&#8217;t act in vain</p>
<p>veit</p>
<p>posted 2008/09/28 19:41</p>
<p>Just for the record: I never wanted annoying public discussions like this. I talked with many of you for days, weeks, months, trying to find compromises (and you know it, but of course won&#8217;t admit it&#8230;.I am of course never willing to talk to anyone). Then YOU decided to attack HC, posting complete lies on hcvolunteers and later BW (like the history page&#8230;one complete mess of lies and half truths). This DID damage HC, because you managed to f**k the brains of many well meaning ppl. Time to put the real truth out there &#8211; so stop whining and accept the fact that people will learn through www.bewelcome.info about the real facts behind this oh-so open, wonderful, democratic, transparent little site of yours here.</p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=claudiaab">claudiaab</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/29 18:56</p>
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<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Hi there,</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"> Well, all the facts are out there, I have already replied to Veit&#8217;s accusations ages ago without getting any feedback / answer from him. Check http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229 reply # 5 &#8211; Veit just ignored these answers &#8211; probably too difficult for him to react to them?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Just for argument&#8217;s sake, his comparison of &#8216;stealing a car&#8217; is completely useless &#8211; if you steal somebody&#8217;s car this person usually doesn&#8217;t have it any more, does he? The only &#8216;thing&#8217; we ever &#8216;stole&#8217; from HC in that sense was our own time and energy. Guess who has more right to that time and energy in the first place?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"> Since I trust in the intelligence of people to make up their minds as to who here is the aggressor, whose arguments are just accusations, and who really intends to answer questions, I think there is not much more to say from my part. Just one more point about &#8216;hypocrisy&#8217; or &#8216;someone pretending what they are not really doing&#8217;, see the HC passage on &#8216;strengthening peace on our planet&#8217; (http://www.hospitalityclub.org/ 2nd paragraph or http://peace.hospitalityclub.org/) and judge for yourselves if this is what Veit has been doing here&#8230;</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br />Claudia</p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a name="post2799"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=veit">veit</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/29 19:19</p>
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<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Oh great, the usual: &#8220;you don&#8217;t work for peace because you are discussing and disagreeing with me&#8221; argument. What a nonsense. And dear Claudia, don&#8217;t forget who started putting out massive propaganda against HC and me personally for years and years. So you do work for peace on BW?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">And your statement &#8220;The only &#8216;thing&#8217; we ever &#8216;stole&#8217; from HC in that sense was our own time and energy. Guess who has more right to that time and energy in the first place?&#8221; just shows the usual BW arrogance. You stole stuff that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong>other volunteers had worked on just as much as you.</strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>They clearly said they did not want to have anything to do with BW, and that they disagreed with you taking it, but you stole their work nonetheless&#8230;and now arrogantly claim you had some right to do so. Shame on you!</p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a name="post2800"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=midsch">midsch</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/29 19:59</p>
<hr />
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">@rockup (and others who might be concerned:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right. This thread is mostly bitching. It&#8217;s uncivil and a real waste of time if you&#8217;re not in it. I do apoligize for it and ask you politely to ignore the whole thread if your are &#8220;only&#8221; interested in info a about BW. Please believe me the title of the thread is really misleading. You&#8217;re very welcome to check out the rest of this site (still a construction area), start other threads and send me a mail with whatever comes up to your mind. I still think hospitality exchange (or exchange as such) is a great idea and I&#8217;m eager to broaden my horizon.</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">@Veit: You&#8217;re welcome to publish &#8220;your version&#8221; of things wherever you like to, yes, you don&#8217;t have to buy another domain, feel free to post here. I also understand that from your side and from the former HCVolunteers a lot of personal feelings are involved. This may make discussion between some people impossible. But as long as you ignore every question &amp; response from everyone here or end it up by calling it &#8220;non discussion&#8221; anyway, I&#8217;ll ask my self: What do you want here?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">If we&#8217;re all &#8220;brainfucked&#8221; (your word) wannabe criminals here you must just wasting your time. That&#8217;s not brave, that&#8217;s simply stupid.</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">But maybe you&#8217;re really interested in sort out things. Than it&#8217;s your turn to start correcting bw.info at some points and react &#8211; at least indirectly if you don&#8217;t want to talk to special persons &#8211; to answers, questions and so on.</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">midsch</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/28/project-reuniting-the-community/trackback/">http://www.opencouchsurfing.org</a></p>
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<p>vv<br /><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:0;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;">
<div id="content" class="section-in-column-content" style="border:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);margin-left:12.2em;position:relative;color:black;line-height:1.5em;background-color:white;margin-top:-1px;z-index:2;padding:0 1em 1.5em;">
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<h1 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:188%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Information about Bewelcome.info</h1>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">This Wiki Page sum all the informations about the arguments at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bewelcome.info/" class="external text" title="http://www.bewelcome.info" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=2" title="Technical information about the website Bewelcome.info">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Technical_information_about_the_website_Bewelcome.info"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Technical information about the website Bewelcome.info</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Regarding to a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.whois2.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.whois2.org" rel="nofollow">Whois</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on Bewelcome.info from 30th September 2008 the Website was registered on 24th May 2007 by Veit Kühne. He is also the official administrator, the person who pay the bills and the technical contact person. The Domain is linked to a subpage of the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" rel="nofollow">HC Volunteer Wiki</a>, with the following edits:</p>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>2008/09/29 20:04 bewelcome.info – quick fix veit (current)</li>
<li>2008/09/26 19:03 show differences to current version bewelcome.info – published veit</li>
<li>2008/04/24 14:48 show differences to current version bewelcome.info – created veit</li>
</ul>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">It is possible to register to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" rel="nofollow">HC Volunteer Wiki</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>with nickname/valid mailadress and after a registrationmail the new user could edit the page. So some information here may be outdated by new edits.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=3" title="Information about Veit Kühne">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Information_about_Veit_K.C3.BChne"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Information about Veit Kühne</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Veit Kühne from Radebeul, Germany is the founder and owner of the Hospitality Website<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://hospitalityclub.org/" class="external text" title="http://hospitalityclub.org" rel="nofollow">Hospitality Club</a></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=4" title="About Hospitality Services">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="About_Hospitality_Services"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">About Hospitality Services</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">In 1949 Bob Luitweiler founded the first hospitality service called<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.servas.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.servas.org" rel="nofollow">Servas Open Doors</a>. For More information about Hospitality Services, you can have a look at<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_service" class="external text" title="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_service" rel="nofollow">wikipedia</a></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=5" title="Launch of Bewelcome.info">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Launch_of_Bewelcome.info"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Launch of Bewelcome.info</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">On 26th September 2008 a member from BeWelcome<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/bw/member.php?cid=veit" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/bw/member.php?cid=veit" rel="nofollow">Veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>posted a new topic in the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/forums" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/forums" rel="nofollow">BeWelcome Forum</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>about the launch of Bewelcome.info. We can proceed from the assumption that the username is used by Veit Kühne. (A similar Post was made by Veit at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/26/wwwbewelcomeinfo-the-real-background/" class="external text" title="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/26/wwwbewelcomeinfo-the-real-background/" rel="nofollow">OpenCouchsurfing</a>.)</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=6" title="Content of Bewelcome.info">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Content_of_Bewelcome.info"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Content of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bewelcome.info/" class="external text" title="http://www.bewelcome.info" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">The key arguments &#8220;against&#8221; BeWelcome are:</p>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>BW is not democratic</li>
<li>BW is not transparent</li>
<li>BW is not based on a legal foundation</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen the Hospitality Club Redesign</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen the geografical database from Hospitality Club</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen the text (like FAQs) from Hospitality Club</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen money from Hospitality Club</li>
</ul>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=7" title="Arguments">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Arguments"></a><br />
<h1 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:188%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Arguments</h1>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=8" title="not democratic">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="not_democratic"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">not democratic</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#democratic" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#democratic" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>BW is not democratic.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=9" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">That is true. Quote from the About Us page from BeWelcome</p>
<blockquote><p>Dreaming alone is not enough. That&#8217;s why we have founded BeVolunteer, a non-profit organisation registered in Rennes, France. Through BeVolunteer&#8217;s official statutes, we provide a basis for democratic decision making, financial transparency and information security so that we can protect our members and manage the project BeWelcome effectively.</p></blockquote>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Therefore it is only guaranteed that you can join a decision if you are a member of BeVolunteer.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=10" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">To get a member of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is as easy as to get a member of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://bewelcome.org/" class="external text" title="http://bewelcome.org" rel="nofollow">BeWelcome</a>. You have to sign on at the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/" rel="nofollow">forum</a>. But even that you have no “guarantee to vote” as a member of BeWelcome, most of the discussions are made with and in cooperation with BeWelcome members.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=11" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>The discussions are currently still dominated by volunteers, and in future they will likely (or hopefully) be dominated by some very active or very noise members. How can we make sure that the interests of less noisy people are not ignored?</li>
</ol>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>Lemonhead thinks the solution is to do member research and surveys. That&#8217;s not democracy as in the book, but it&#8217;s useful.</li>
<li>Full<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/wiki/Democracy" title="Democracy">democracy</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>does only work if (i) enough people are informed and active enough to participate, and (ii) the available options do really give a meaningful choice, and (iii) we can rule out cheating. This is not impossible, but it needs a bit more thinking.</li>
</ul>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>How should our<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Propaganda&amp;action=edit" class="new" title="Propaganda">propaganda</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>material reflect this twilight state of democracy? Is it ok to write on a poster &#8220;BW is democratic&#8221; ? Veit and Lemon-head think it should not, or needs to be rephrased.</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=12" title="not transparent">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="not_transparent"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">not transparent</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they discuss almost everything behind closed doors&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=13" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_2"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">The first platform for the Volunteers was a mostly closed forum, and a mostly closed wiki. Even inside the forum there were different areas and levels of access.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">This way of hiding things is not so exotic, but it&#8217;s questionable in an org that makes transparency one of the core values. (depends a bit on the definition of transparency)</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">On the other hand, we can never rule out personal &#8220;hidden&#8221; discussions with chat or email, and it&#8217;s also not desirable.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=14" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_2"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">In February 2008 some of the the tools (like the wiki and forum) where not public for non BeVolunteer members. And even as a member of BeVolunteer you had to get a account to get access. Nowadays nearly everything is open to everyone. Even for non BeVolunteer members. Check it out:</p>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer Website</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer Forum</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/Main_Page" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/Main_Page" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer Wiki</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/mailman" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/mailman" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer MailingList</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/trac" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/trac" rel="nofollow">BeWelcome Trac</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(The Bug-Reporting tool)</li>
</ul>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">For editing rights (at some points) you need to have a account. In that case just contact a member of BeVolunteer.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=15" title="not based on a legal foundation">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="not_based_on_a_legal_foundation"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">not based on a legal foundation</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they discuss almost everything behind closed doors&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=16" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_3"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=17" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_3"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=18" title="founders have stolen the Hospitality Club Redesign">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founders_have_stolen_the_Hospitality_Club_Redesign"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founders have stolen the Hospitality Club Redesign</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they had stolen and used the complete HC Redesign&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=19" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_4"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" rel="nofollow">veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 25-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I heard that you plan to use the redesign that an HC team developed together. Even though the main graphic designer (Micha) might agree that you can use his work, I know some other team members who gave input and worked on it, do not &#8211; Simon (who managed the entire redesign process), Wibke and me definitely do not. Can I please have an answer what is the case here? Apart from the moral implications of simply taking (I didnt wanna say &#8220;stealing&#8221; here) the work of an entire team from HC, don&#8217;t you think it will be a bit ridiculous if there will be two hospitality exchange networks with the same or very similar layout soon (even IF a few colours or minor details might be different)?</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=20" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_4"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" rel="nofollow">claudiaab</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" rel="nofollow">You have a question about BeWelcome?</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 11-Sep-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>Many of our volunteers previously volunteered for hospitality club or couchsurfing. The same applies for the design team. Of course the fact that so many volunteers left the HC redesign team in order to join BW Design Team, including some of the main contributors, explains why there is a style similar to the work they have done for HC. This is normal and natural. Please note that in the beginning, when BeVolunteer was still called HCVolunteers, the aim was to contribute to HC. The actual BW design, however, does not resemble the results of the HC Redesign Team a lot. BeVolunteer does not in any way encourage its volunteers to breach contracts they might have signed related to previous volunteering activity. Further, volunteering experience is not a requirement in order to join the teams of BeWelcome. As long as they don&#8217;t break any law or contract our volunteers are free and encouraged to contribute their skills or experience to the project as much as they want and can.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=21" title="Sidenotes">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Sidenotes"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Sidenotes</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">For stuff done for BW there will never be such arguments, as it&#8217;s all GPL licensed. Just for the translations I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=22" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions_2"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Questions by lemon-head:</p>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>Who else has participated in the HC redesign, and why do these people not speak up? Or has Veit himself done the redesign?
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>I have to correct myself. The persons are clearly named &#8211; Simon and Wibke. I would be curious to read their opinions, and if anything can be done to settle this conflict.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>How much of the HC redesign has been copied in the starting days, and how much is still there today?
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>As I see it, it&#8217;s mostly the teaser with a colored bg, the shape of the tabs in the bottom of the teaser, and the shade of a world map in the teaser. Maybe some smaller design elements (search fields, buttons?) do also have similarities? The color itself has been changed to the much-loved, much-hated orange. In the HC drafts I don&#8217;t see any tabs on top of the teaser.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Do we need to think about a free license for translations? Lemon-head&#8217;s concern is not so much the idea of everything being free for all, but that authors have a right to (re)use their own work, even if it is part of a team product. For this sake, a free license seems the best solution.</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=23" title="founder has stolen the geografical database from Hospitality Club">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founder_has_stolen_the_geografical_database_from_Hospitality_Club"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founder has stolen the geografical database from Hospitality Club</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they were using the exact same geographic database as HC&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=24" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_5"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=25" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_5"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" rel="nofollow">claudiaab</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" rel="nofollow">You have a question about BeWelcome?</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 11-Sep-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>What you saw was a sample of geographic data on a not official website, since it was done with the data one of the programmers used on his laptop for testing (as far as I have been informed this was not the data of the online HC database, it was just too big for the sample of the moment). As you can easily see the geographic data of BW is not the same as that of HC: we have to admit that so far there are still some places missing in our geo database &#8211; places that the HC database covers&#8230; The current data of the BW geobase comes from geodata, which is a public database, and is still evolving. Again, feel free to compare with HC.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=26" title="Question">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Question"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Question</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Where does the BW geo DB come from? I&#8217;m curious.. &#8212; lemon-head</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=27" title="founders have stolen the text (like FAQs) from Hospitality Club">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founders_have_stolen_the_text_.28like_FAQs.29_from_Hospitality_Club"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founders have stolen the text (like FAQs) from Hospitality Club</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>.Another blatant theft happened with texts HC Teams had been working on</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=28" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_6"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" rel="nofollow">veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 25-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I heard that you plan to use the redesign that an HC team developed together. Even though the main graphic designer (Micha) might agree that you can use his work, I know some other team members who gave input and worked on it, do not &#8211; Simon (who managed the entire redesign process), Wibke and me definitely do not. Can I please have an answer what is the case here? Apart from the moral implications of simply taking (I didnt wanna say &#8220;stealing&#8221; here) the work of an entire team from HC, don&#8217;t you think it will be a bit ridiculous if there will be two hospitality exchange networks with the same or very similar layout soon (even IF a few colours or minor details might be different)?</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>BTW, his explanations there are pathetic&#8230;he argues that you never stole the FAQ texts, because you have changed them by now. That&#8217;s like saying: I never stole a car, because look: I have a completely different one.</p></blockquote>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=29" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_6"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" rel="nofollow">claudiaab</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" rel="nofollow">You have a question about BeWelcome?</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 11-Sep-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>Please see the answer to question 1, have a closer look at the current BW FAQs and compare them with HC FAQs. If you find any similarities that are not just due to the fact that the subject we are dealing with is similar, we would like you to point out concrete cases.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=30" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions_3"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">It seems like there was a day when BW FAQs looked the same as HC FAQs. The texts have all been changed long ago, but the structure is still there, so it seems. Question is:</p>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>At this time, was BW already a website, or rather a heap of code on some people&#8217;s laptops?</li>
<li>Who wrote the HC FAQs in the first place?</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=31" title="founder has stolen money from Hospitality Club">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founder_has_stolen_money_from_Hospitality_Club"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founder has stolen money from Hospitality Club</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>In Monnai, it looked as if Pierre was making a loss, so Veit personally urged the members there to donate some more money so this loss could be avoided. In the end, Pierre made a profit of about 2000 Euros.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=32" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_7"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" rel="nofollow">veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 25-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I read in your FAQ that you are using this money for HCVol/BW. Is this correct? I have to assume it is, since you wrote it yourself. Now, if any of you don&#8217;t know: I had a clear agreement with Pierre, that the surplus money was to be used for HC. I even helped him a lot in Monnai when it seemed that they would make a deficit, so he wouldn&#8217;t have such a deficit. HC members in Monnai also knew this. I &#8211; and I guess many of them &#8211; would consider it highly immoral to now simply &#8220;use&#8221; this money to set up a competing site. For me, a word between friends or colleagues counts. Pierre (and others), if you are indeed using this money for HCVol, could I please have an explanation? (The one in the FAQ that HC doesnt have a legal status is really not a good one. The agreement between Pierre and me was that he simply holds on to that money until we DO have a legal status.)</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=33" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_7"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=5" rel="nofollow">pietshah</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 28-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I will answer the topic about &#8220;money from Monnai camp&#8221; in the more precise way I can. It&#8217;s good, in fact, that you made this question since it pushed us to think more about the topic, and clear the things. I&#8217;m going to try to bring all the elements together. First a few point about the &#8220;history&#8221;: &#8211; There is indeed an agreement between me and Veit that eventual camp benefits will go to HC. More than that, I&#8217;ve always been a promotor of the general idea that HC camps (or promoted as such) must affect their eventual benefits to HC &#8211; Monnai camp shouldn&#8217;t have had benefits. One day before its end, Veit and me even did an announce that we were losing money and that people had to think about making a donation, as it was expected to finance the camp. Closing the accounts and paying the last bills, various supliers refused me to pay them since they wanted to offer then, and had some luck with administration services&#8230; That&#8217;s how, at the end, we had little more than 2000€ of benefits (sorry that i&#8217;ve not the exact number, the accounts are in my backup in france, i&#8217;ll get it in a few weeks) &#8211; some time after the camp, with Veit we talked about how to transfer that money to HC. I talked about 2 criterious:
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>a legal one: that money comes from donations (from HC members, from other persons and from companies. The part of HC members donation is even the smaller in that), and from public subventions. The camp was managed by a legal NGO, which had to do all its stuff clearly. Its accounts and budget were published. (and I was well checked, for the story I can tell you that secret services were calling me once a week for monthes before the camp&#8230; hippies are dangerous people <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  ). As a consequence, the transfer to HC had to be done in a legal way: to a legal non-profit entity, publishing its accounts following legal rules.</li>
<li>a moral one: That money comes from donations. It looks to me as a very basic duty from me/us to give them an imput about how it was used, and for what. Giving a white check without more info on its future and management, isn&#8217;t a correct way to treat the donators.</li>
</ul>
<p>- these are the reasons why, after long hesitations and discussions, I, Jean-Yves and Nicolas (other administrator of the HCfriends NGO), decided not to proceed to the money transfer as long as these criterious are not fulfilled. Veit told various times that &#8220;HC will have a legal status&#8221;, so it&#8217;s just a question of time. Nothing more was really planed by us, except waiting. To be honest, we thought it might have been a motivation for Veit to hurry up in some changes in HC (legal status especially). &#8211; the money was put on a bank account and affected, in the accounts, as a reserve. &#8211; Since the HCfriends NGO have no activity planed anymore, we are not allowed to keep money like that. We decided to give its management to BeVolunteer, without changing anything of the nature/destination of that money. Since both organization has a stated goal to promote the ideas of hospitality and intercultural exchange, there was no problem in realizing that transfer. Note: we indeed published on our medias that BeVolunteer was using money from Monnai camp. Indeed, we had discussed that this money is here, and we consider ourselves like the evolution of HC so there is no problem. But well, the discussion had not been far enough, and we recognize it might have been an error. As stated below we will transmit the money when it will be possible. So, here is the situation now: BeVolunteer will indeed transmit that money to HC when the exposed conditions will be met. BeVolunteer BoD also established that this transfer could be also done to a HC related event which would be organized in a legal way with transparent financial management.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=34" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions_4"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>What would have been the correct way to deal with this?</li>
<li>If we agree that waiting for a legal status is the correct way, then what is / would have been the correct way to deal with the money in the meantime?</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=35" title="Notes">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Notes"></a><br />
<h1 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:188%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Notes</h1>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"><a href="Reflist&amp;action=edit" class="new" title="Reflist">Template:Reflist</a></p>
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		<title>Hospitality Club founder Veit Kühne attacks bewelcome</title>
		<link>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/hospitality-club-founder-veit-kuhne-attacks-bewelcome/</link>
		<comments>http://opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/hospitality-club-founder-veit-kuhne-attacks-bewelcome/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 03:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>opencouchsurfing</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[bewelcome]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[site wars]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Veit Kühne]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Veit Kuehne]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Hospitality Club founder Veit Kühne attacks bewelcome As posted on the bewelcome forums. Hi guys, we finally found time to publish our side of the story. If you are interested in the real background of BW, check out: http://www.bewelcome.info Have fun reading! yeah, we like to spend our time more productively on HC as well [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=opencouchsurfing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=5066684&amp;post=53&amp;subd=opencouchsurfing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-size:100%;">Hospitality Club founder </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:center;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=veit">Veit</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"> Kühne attacks bewelcome</p>
<p>As posted on the <span style="font-weight:bold;">bewelcome forums</span>.</p>
<p></span><br />
<blockquote><span style="font-size:100%;">Hi guys, we finally found time to publish our side of the story. If you are interested in the real background of BW, check out:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bewelcome.info/">http://www.bewelcome.info</a></p>
<p>Have fun reading!</p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Arial;font-size:100%;">
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>yeah, we like to spend our time more productively on HC as well rather than writing such a text (like it says on the page), but this time it was a real necessity, since BW folks have poured so much s**t over HC and me in the last years that we had to set the record straight. Took us over 2 years to write this text..<span style="font-weight:bold;color:rgb(255,0,0);">.generally we do concentrate on the real work on HC.</span></p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">And about comparisons with &#8220;real life politics&#8221;: I grew up in a country called &#8220;German Democratic Republic&#8221;&#8230;I am still quite allergic to ppl calling something democratic which really is just a joke.</p>
<p></span><span style="font-size:100%;">cc<br /></span></p></blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"> From the opencouchsurfing.org site<br /></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(68,68,68);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:-1px;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:'Trebuchet MS';font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/26/wwwbewelcomeinfo-the-real-background/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link to &quot;www.BeWelcome.info - the real background!&quot;">www.BeWelcome.info &#8211; the real background!</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br />Published by veit??<br />This blog is mostly run by BW-lovers with a clear agenda (</span><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0);font-size:100%;">make CS </span><span style="font-size:100%;">and HC look bad so their “oh-so-moral” alternative looks attractive). For all others, who still have</span><span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;"> a somewhat open mind</span><span style="font-size:100%;"> and don’t fall so easily for Kasper &amp; Co’s constant propaganda, here a link to our side of the story:</p>
<p>http://www.bewelcome.info</p>
<p>The real background about this “democratic, transparent, legal” (sic) network.<br /></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span>
<div id="toc__inside">
<ul class="toc">
<li class="level1">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#www.bewelcome.info" class="toc">www.Bewelcome.info</a></span></div>
<ul class="toc">
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#why_these_pages" class="toc">Why these pages?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#most_important_facts" class="toc">Most important facts</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#democratic" class="toc">Democratic?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="toc">Transparent?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#legal_foundation" class="toc">Legal Foundation?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="toc">Theft</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#groupthink" class="toc">Groupthink</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#why_are_they_attacking_hc_all_the_time" class="toc">Why are they attacking HC all the time?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#effects_on_hc" class="toc">Effects on HC</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#does_the_world_need_another_network" class="toc">Does the world need another network?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#little_known_facts" class="toc">Little Known Facts</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#how_to_deal_with_them" class="toc">How to deal with them</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#main_characters" class="toc">Main Characters</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#project_reuniting_the_community" class="toc">Project &#8220;Reuniting the Community&#8221;</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#your_voice" class="toc">Your Voice</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#what_do_you_think" class="toc">What do you think?</a></span></div>
</li>
<li class="level2">
<div class="li"><span class="li" style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#how_you_can_help" class="toc">How you can help</a></span></div>
</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul></div>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p><a href="http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?domain=www.bewelcome.info">http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?domain=www.bewelcome.info</a><br /></span>
<pre><span style="font-size:100%;">Registrant Name:Veit KuehneRegistrant Organization:Registrant Street1:Augustusweg 59Registrant Street2:Registrant Street3:Registrant City:RadebeulRegistrant State/Province:Registrant Postal Code:01445Registrant Country:DERegistrant Phone:+49.01737749365Registrant Phone Ext.:Registrant FAX:Registrant FAX Ext.:Registrant **********@hospitalityclub.orgAdmin ID:GODA-232649094Admin Name:Veit KuehneAdmin Organization:Admin Street1:Augustusweg 59Admin Street2:Admin Street3:Admin City:RadebeulAdmin State/Province:Admin Postal Code:01445Admin Country:DEAdmin Phone:+49.01737749365Admin Phone Ext.:Admin FAX:Admin FAX Ext.:Admin **********@hospitalityclub.orgBilling ID:GODA-332649094Billing Name:Veit KuehneBilling Organization:Billing Street1:Augustusweg 59Billing Street2:Billing Street3:Billing City:RadebeulBilling State/Province:Billing Postal Code:01445Billing Country:DEBilling Phone:+49.01737749365Billing Phone Ext.:Billing FAX:Billing FAX Ext.:Billing **********@hospitalityclub.orgTech ID:GODA-132649094Tech Name:Veit KuehneTech Organization:Tech Street1:Augustusweg 59

</span></pre>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(99,140,156);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:12px;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:'Lucida Grande';"><br /></span></p>
<p><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info?do=revisions">http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info?do=revisions</a><br />These are the older revisions of the current document. To revert to an old revision, select it from below, click Edit this page and save it.</p>
<p>2008/09/26 19:03  bewelcome.info – published veit (current)<br />2008/04/24 14:48  bewelcome.info – created veit</p>
<p>About </span><span class="text" style="font-size:100%;">Veit Kühne</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span><span class="text" style="font-size:100%;">The Hospitality Club was started in 2000 and has spread quickly around the globe by making full use of the Internet. Its founder, Veit Kühne from Germany, spent a year as an AFS exchange student in the USA and is a volunteer for this large intercultural learning organization. The Hospitality Club invites anyone who would like to see the internet become a platform for a large hospitality exchange network to try it out for themselves. </span><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p></span><br />
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.hospitalityclub.org/veit/indexeng.htm" class="l"><em>Veit Kühne</em></a></span></h3>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span><br />
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.hospitalityguide.net/hg/wiki/index.php?title=BeWelcome" class="l">Hosp.Ex Ne&gt;&gt;t &#8211; | Wiki :: BeWelcome &#8211; HospitalityGuide.net</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://wordpress.com/tag/veit/" class="l"><em>Veit</em>   on WordPress</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.whois.ws/whois-org/hospitalityclub.org/" class="l">hospitalityclub.org &#8211; Who.is</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_Club" class="l">Hospitality Club &#8211; Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></span></h3>
<h3 class="r"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/451/852" class="l"><em>Veit Kuehne</em> [<em>veit</em>@hospitalityclub.org] &#8211; LinkedIn</a></span></h3>
<p><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.freewebs.com/toniwalia/">http://www.freewebs.com/toniwalia/</a><br /></span>
<dl class="clearfix">
<dd class="result_network"><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.new.facebook.com/s.php?k=100000080&amp;id=502860070" class="url fn">Veit Kuehne facebook </a></span></dd>
</dl>
<p><span class="text" style="font-size:100%;">Veit Kühne    <a href="mailto:veit@hospitalityclub.org">veit@hospitalityclub.org</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p>I was very active in the hc forum until babso decided to destroy it. This is the first time we talk to each other.<br />I am so sad to realize that the charges I heard against you were true. Sad for hc mainly, such a big well intended organization with so many nice members deserve a better owner than you. You are a poor little man. The only solution to hc is that you resign from it and a new foundation takes place.<br />Why are you so afraid of democracy and transparency? Your reunite solution shows everything. It will happen the contrary to what you expect. Democracy and transparency make us stronger and not weaker as you think. The problem with you is that you do not believe in democracy and transparency. The question is why. Afraid to loose your position? Loose money? We could talk about how to improve our ways in terms of democracy and transparency, but your solution consists on a personal tirany. Follow veit, as tilman says.</p>
<p>Answering you.<br />DEMOCRACY. It is true that only BV members can vote. But at least, there is a votation. Know what? This is what happens in al democracies in the world. Only elected people can vote. And there are elections from time to time. However, you gave me an idea about how to improve democracy in BW, perhaps the BW members could vote some way. Let&#8217;s think about it.<br />Your hipocracy: there is nothing like this in HC, and you don&#8217;t want this for HC.</p>
<p>TRANSPARENCY. Only the discussions among BV members are hidden. The decissions along with the reasons are public. However, there is a process going on. Many volunteers want to make everything public. Although I am not of this opinion, I have nothing so strong against it. Listen to how BW members can participate in the discussions. I am in the support team, similar to the hc email team. (yes, Claudia is my chief, nice woman btw) When I receive a suggestion, I open a discussion about it in the volunteers forum and invite the member who suggested that to participate in the discussion. It is all opened for that person. The decissions are taken by majority, as the member can check. If I receive a complain, I do the same, the member who complains totally participates in the discussion. If a member needs information, I give all information available. All around our economy is public. Perhaps we should go to total transparency, who knows, we are discussing it and still have no final decission.<br />Your hipocracy: Compare with HC.</p>
<p>You are wrong about BW faqs:</p>
<p>HC FAQ: Is joining really free? Yes. We will never charge a membership fee. There will be no costs to you. We do ask you to dedicate some time if you can and help us make The Hospitality Club better and better.<br />BW FAQ: Is joining really free? Yes. We will never charge a membership fee. There will be no costs to you. We do ask you to dedicate some time if you can and help us make BeWelcome a better and better site.<br />Wrong, the BW FAQ is: is joining free of charge? And the answer is:<br />Joining is free and we will never charge a membership fee. There will be no required costs to you at all. However, we do ask you to dedicate some time, if you can, and help us make BeWelcome a better site.</p>
<p>HC Email Team FAQ: Why are couples required to fill in two profiles?<br />Actually, it was both a technical as well as an organizational decision. We listened closely to experiences from Servas and they had had many problems when couples split or the entry in the host list could not be filled in for both (not just male/female, also different interests, occupations etc.). Therefore we decided to ask couples to sign for individual accounts, if they both want to log into the site. You can, of course, trust each other or mention the other in your profile. […]<br />BW FAQ: Why are couples required to fill in two profiles?<br />Actually, it was both a technical as well as an organisational decision. We listened closely to experiences from Servas and they had had many problems when couples split or the entry in the host list could not be filled in for both (not just male/female, also different interests, occupations etc.). Therefore we decided to ask couples to sign up for individual accounts, if they both want to log into the site. […] You can, of course, trust each other or mention the other in your profile.</p>
<p>Wrong. The BW FAQ is:Why are couples required to register separately? And the answer is:</p>
<p>First of all, it is difficult to keep profiles &#8216;clean&#8217; if they refer to multiple persons. Secondly, groups often travel or host separately and therefore need individual profiles in order to clarify contact information and comments written about individuals. We also have taken into account the experience of Servas, a hospitality website that has had many problems when couples split. We therefore have decided to ask people to sign up for individual accounts if they both want to log into the site. You can show your relation with your partner or roomate by using the &#8216;Add Relation&#8217; tool in your Actions toolbox. Thus your profile picture will be connected to your friend or partner&#8217;s profile and vice versa. Still, you will have two independent accounts for practical purposes.</p>
<p>The questions and answers are not the same. I suppose that you are not the owner of the ideas, eh? And anyway, this is a normal way of functioning when you try to put people in touch. So please try to go to the courts for this. You will loose for sure.</p>
<p>There are charges in your bewelcome.info that I cannot give an answer. I was not there when it happened. Please, I am asking the people involved in these charges to give an answer. Please trust in democracy and transparency and give your view of it. Perhaps you are tired of this story and think only in the future, same as me. But this charges are now in the BW forum, so an answer is a must.</p>
<p>Veit, I am aware of your intention. You think that you set the battlefield into BW, and this will weaken us. You will be defeated. Having a democratic and transparent way of functioning is not a risk, as you will realize soon.</p>
<p>Actually, I was digging up <a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.0">http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.0</a> posted January last year by Veit. In the thread Veit asks some questions (closely related to some of the points on www.bewelcome.info) and Guaka, JY, Lupochen, hkroger and Pietshah all give some answers.</p>
<p>Here is my two cents about your groupthink. I must say I did had fun while writing this.</p>
<p>&#8220;Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.&#8221;<br />Have you ever had a look to our discussions? Probably not, so you write this with lack of knowledge. Just the bravery of the ignorant. Well, they are long and full of different opinions.</p>
<p>This is you! This is exactly why you do not open hc to any small democratic change. You are afraid! However BW-BV is openwide. Yes, perhaps you could put into practice your reunity challenge. It is theoretically possible.</p>
<p>This is you again! Almost nobody in hc knows how hc is ruled. It is plenty of false assumptions. As for democracy and transparency is concerned, we recognize our limitations and we are ready to talk about it.</p>
<p>This is hc again! Based on false assumptions. If you had a look to our discussions you will realize that we question everything.</p>
<p>Yes, this is true in your case. Have fun! However, we are ready to discuss with you, look at the answers you are getting.</p>
<p>This is you again! How many people have you expulsed of hc already? How much censorship? You will see, nobody will press you here or censor you.<br />By the way, do you think I am being hard to you? Yes, I am! I am having fun! But you started this, so why can I not go on having fun?</p>
<p>Oh yes, I am self censoring me so much&#8230; have fun!</p>
<p>Oh no, we know exactly who is after or against a proposition. And the reasons everyone has. Again this is the bravery of the ignorant.</p>
<p>This must be my position, I guess. Be careful people, I will punish you if you don&#8217;t obey me. Have fun!</p>
<p>Now, let&#8217;s have a look to veit&#8217;s ass lickers.<br />What irritates me most was when BW was getting started or had already started, some of the so called &#8216;founder members&#8217; who were still in HC, tried to brainwash me by tell me all those lies. I did not know the stories then but I felt that since they were trying so hard to get me “on Board” their website, there must be something not right. Looking back, all what they told me were lies. Moral wise, BW founder members, who jumped ship [HC] because of money are without fiber. I still laugh of any mention of BW as a &#8216;non-site&#8217;. Fact, I have more HC members in my city of Warsaw than BW has in the whole world. What a laugh. Although I maintain a profile in BW. I have never logged in regularly and have never hosted anyone form there. toniwalia (HC member with most comments, active volunteer in Warsaw and Forum)</p>
<p>In 2006 when I started volunteering. The discussions about Bewelcome were very, shall we say prevailing. Everybody was talking about Bewelcome. That was also the time when I met many key vols personally. I talked many hours with claudia in Aschaffenburg (I visited her), with Kjell, with Simon, etc. My intention was to hear all opinions, extract the facts, and then make the decision into which project I shall put my energies.<br />The arguments I heard from you Bewelcome guys sounded very strong but I DID NOT FIND any evidence for them! I saw what Veit had done. I tried to imagine how I would organize the club if I would found it today. And I would do it just the way Veit did it! I saw that the democratic model of Bewelcome is simply not a good way to organize such a project. Ok, it is difficult now to prove it (we will see in the future) but all evidence I had suggested that hc has the best chances of being successful in the long term.<br />Of course I saw also the many problems hc had (and has). But I concluded that if we all put our energies into working WITH veit (and yes, for the Hospitality Club) instead of working against him, then hc has the best chances! I don&#8217;t see any chances for Bewelcome. tilman (active meeting organizer, Email Team and Volunteer Coordinator)</p>
<p>Well, we are reaching Warsaw in terms of members. As toniwalia thinks only in numbers, he will be soon a bw volunteer! What a laugh, but I will welcome him.And tilman expressed well what&#8217;s hc about, a non democratic by own decission, leader directed group. Tilman is a pearl!</p>
<p>Sorry, veit, but you put them as examples, didn&#8217;t you? Ok, let&#8217;s analize this in terms of that &#8220;groupthink&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;But I concluded that if we all put our energies into working WITH veit (and yes, for the Hospitality Club) instead of working against him, then hc has the best chances!&#8221;</p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=1013924">Warning about systematic censorship on the HC forum</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=487259">how bad treats Hospitalityclub its members/volunteers</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=542120">HC/CS meeting censorship&#8230;</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=747361">we had to terminate your membership to protect other members and our network</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><br />
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<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=28">Check out the original!!</a></td>
<td style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile.html?id=CU17F">Veit Kuehne</a></td>
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<p></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=209733">Why are some HospitalityClub members&#8230;inhospitable?</a></p>
<p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:verdana;font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/group_read.html?gid=10&amp;post=104818">hcvolunteers.org</a></p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=thorgal67">thorgal67</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/27 20:30</p>
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<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Wow, quite a debate <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  and I see some contributors are already enjoying themselves, hehe.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;font-size:100.01%;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Firstly, I agree that we should try and keep this discussion civilized and not too personal (even though the accusations on the BW.info page are quite uncivilized and very personal).</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Feel free to keep discussing and clarifying both points of the discussion, although I feel I have to give my side of the story.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">I have worked quite closely with Veit and I think I know the way he manages to use words as propaganda for his own projects. If you check the BW.info page, you will see there are no links to BW (so no proof, just some alleged copy+paste) but only to&#8230; HC and Wikipedia.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">It would have been so easy to publish links, since 95% of our wiki is completely open (just the &#8216;abuse cases&#8217; are not visible), all of our BeWelcome forum is open (where the real debates take place) and getting access to the BeVolunteer forum is also a piece of cake&#8230;just ask).</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">But no, it is easier for him to paste stuff that is 2 years old and take it out of context&#8230;.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Anyway, I have written down my views and hopefully some facts that might shed some light. Since I don&#8217;t want to clutter this forum, I published it in my personal name on my blog :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusations-by-veit-owner-of-hc">Veit&#8217;s Accusations</a></p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">I will try to answer all of Veit&#8217;s accusations, just give me some time as I&#8217;ll be traveling the next week.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Veit, will you please publish my responses in full on your wiki ?</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">peace and blue skies,</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Frank</p>
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<h2 class="bTitle" style="font-family:Georgia,'Lucida Sans Unicode',Tahoma,Arial,serif;position:relative;top:4px;font-size:18px;line-height:25px;color:rgb(101,101,81);margin:0;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusations-by-veit-owner-of-hc">Accusations by Veit, owner of HC</a></h2>
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<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">2 days ago Veit, owner of an hospitality exchange network called Hospitality Club (HC), published a document on a website called<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://bewelcome.info/">BeWelcome.info</a>. This document accuses and attacks another Hospitality Exchange network called<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bewelcome.org/">BeWelcome</a>. Since Veit has made it clear that he believes there should only be one single hospitality exchange network (in this case HC), this might explain the harsh criticism and attacks that he publishes on the .INFO page. Whether it justifies buying a domain that is almost the same as BeWelcome.org, is another question. But since he used to own Couchsurfing.info for quite some time, it shouldn&#8217;t surprise anyone of the kind of tactics he uses.</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">I feel that the BW.INFO page contains many inaccuracies, half-truths, lies and lots of propaganda (in favour of HC). To me it is quite clear what the intention is of Veit : throw mud and hope that some of it will stick.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br />The best proof is that he makes many accusations, but fails to put even one single link towards the proof. There are in fact only two links in his whole document : one to a wikipedia page, and one to Hospitality Club<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">Since I feel that Veit personally attacked me and a project that I love dearly, I decided to answer him here. I will give my personal opinion about his views, and will try to provide facts and proof (with links!) to show that he has written his accusations because he wants to hurt BeWelcome.</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">Just before we start: There is one fact that we cannot deny:<br />Veit already made these accusations a long time ago, exactly 1 year ago (11/9/2007). You can read his accusations and the answers here :<a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229">http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229</a></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;">So here we go : Part 1 :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusation-1-faq-texts">BW has stolen Texts from HC Teams</a><br />Let&#8217;s hope Veit has the courage to publish a link to our replies in his BW.info</p>
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<p style="margin:0 0 14px;padding:0;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(58,58,58);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:18px;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;">
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<li><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusation-1-faq-texts">Accusation 1 : FAQ Texts</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.hospitalityexchange.eu/blog1.php/2008/09/27/accusations-by-veit-owner-of-hc">Accusations by Veit, owner of HC</a></li>
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<p>&#8220;they had stolen and used the complete HC Redesign&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;it is clearly based on the Redesign&#8221;</p>
<p>(from http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft)</p>
<p>well, decide for yourself how complete the rip-off is: http://benn.org/gallery/v/hc_redesign/</p>
<p> <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>i would go for the term &#8220;inspired&#8221; or &#8220;re-cycled&#8221;. some related quotes:</p>
<p>&#8220;In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person&#8217;s property without that person&#8217;s freely-given consent.&#8221; &#8212; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft</p>
<p>&#8220;Such a culture would be, by default, permissive of efforts to improve upon, change, integrate, or otherwise remix the work of copyright holders. Lessig presents this as a desirable ideal and argues, among other things, that the health, progress, and wealth creation of a culture is fundamentally tied to this participatory remix process.&#8221; &#8212; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remix_culture</p>
<p>&#8220;Helping your neighbour is now considered the moral equivalent of attacking a ship. [...] Society cannot survive the loss of humanity&#8217;s ability to share&#8221; &#8212; Richard Stallman</p>
<p>what is my point? welcome to the 21st century. be inspired by your fellow humans, be generous and don&#8217;t act in vain</p>
<p>veit</p>
<p>posted 2008/09/28 19:41</p>
<p>Just for the record: I never wanted annoying public discussions like this. I talked with many of you for days, weeks, months, trying to find compromises (and you know it, but of course won&#8217;t admit it&#8230;.I am of course never willing to talk to anyone). Then YOU decided to attack HC, posting complete lies on hcvolunteers and later BW (like the history page&#8230;one complete mess of lies and half truths). This DID damage HC, because you managed to f**k the brains of many well meaning ppl. Time to put the real truth out there &#8211; so stop whining and accept the fact that people will learn through www.bewelcome.info about the real facts behind this oh-so open, wonderful, democratic, transparent little site of yours here.</p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=claudiaab">claudiaab</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/29 18:56</p>
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<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Hi there,</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"> Well, all the facts are out there, I have already replied to Veit&#8217;s accusations ages ago without getting any feedback / answer from him. Check http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229 reply # 5 &#8211; Veit just ignored these answers &#8211; probably too difficult for him to react to them?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Just for argument&#8217;s sake, his comparison of &#8216;stealing a car&#8217; is completely useless &#8211; if you steal somebody&#8217;s car this person usually doesn&#8217;t have it any more, does he? The only &#8216;thing&#8217; we ever &#8216;stole&#8217; from HC in that sense was our own time and energy. Guess who has more right to that time and energy in the first place?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"> Since I trust in the intelligence of people to make up their minds as to who here is the aggressor, whose arguments are just accusations, and who really intends to answer questions, I think there is not much more to say from my part. Just one more point about &#8216;hypocrisy&#8217; or &#8216;someone pretending what they are not really doing&#8217;, see the HC passage on &#8216;strengthening peace on our planet&#8217; (http://www.hospitalityclub.org/ 2nd paragraph or http://peace.hospitalityclub.org/) and judge for yourselves if this is what Veit has been doing here&#8230;</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br />Claudia</p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a name="post2799"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=veit">veit</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/29 19:19</p>
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<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">Oh great, the usual: &#8220;you don&#8217;t work for peace because you are discussing and disagreeing with me&#8221; argument. What a nonsense. And dear Claudia, don&#8217;t forget who started putting out massive propaganda against HC and me personally for years and years. So you do work for peace on BW?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">And your statement &#8220;The only &#8216;thing&#8217; we ever &#8216;stole&#8217; from HC in that sense was our own time and energy. Guess who has more right to that time and energy in the first place?&#8221; just shows the usual BW arrogance. You stole stuff that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong>other volunteers had worked on just as much as you.</strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>They clearly said they did not want to have anything to do with BW, and that they disagreed with you taking it, but you stole their work nonetheless&#8230;and now arrogantly claim you had some right to do so. Shame on you!</p>
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<div class="forumsauthorname" style="font-weight:bold;font-size:1.1em;margin:0;padding:0;"><a name="post2800"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/bw/member.php?cid=midsch">midsch</a></div>
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<p class="forumstime" style="font-size:11px;color:rgb(136,136,136);line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">posted 2008/09/29 19:59</p>
<hr />
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">@rockup (and others who might be concerned:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right. This thread is mostly bitching. It&#8217;s uncivil and a real waste of time if you&#8217;re not in it. I do apoligize for it and ask you politely to ignore the whole thread if your are &#8220;only&#8221; interested in info a about BW. Please believe me the title of the thread is really misleading. You&#8217;re very welcome to check out the rest of this site (still a construction area), start other threads and send me a mail with whatever comes up to your mind. I still think hospitality exchange (or exchange as such) is a great idea and I&#8217;m eager to broaden my horizon.</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">@Veit: You&#8217;re welcome to publish &#8220;your version&#8221; of things wherever you like to, yes, you don&#8217;t have to buy another domain, feel free to post here. I also understand that from your side and from the former HCVolunteers a lot of personal feelings are involved. This may make discussion between some people impossible. But as long as you ignore every question &amp; response from everyone here or end it up by calling it &#8220;non discussion&#8221; anyway, I&#8217;ll ask my self: What do you want here?</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">If we&#8217;re all &#8220;brainfucked&#8221; (your word) wannabe criminals here you must just wasting your time. That&#8217;s not brave, that&#8217;s simply stupid.</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">But maybe you&#8217;re really interested in sort out things. Than it&#8217;s your turn to start correcting bw.info at some points and react &#8211; at least indirectly if you don&#8217;t want to talk to special persons &#8211; to answers, questions and so on.</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;">midsch</p>
<p style="font-size:100.01%;line-height:1.5em;margin:0 0 .8em;padding:0;"><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/28/project-reuniting-the-community/trackback/">http://www.opencouchsurfing.org</a></p>
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<p></span><span style="font-size:100%;"></p>
<p>vv<br /><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:0;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0;">
<div id="content" class="section-in-column-content" style="border:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);margin-left:12.2em;position:relative;color:black;line-height:1.5em;background-color:white;margin-top:-1px;z-index:2;padding:0 1em 1.5em;">
<div id="bodyContent">
<h1 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:188%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Information about Bewelcome.info</h1>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">This Wiki Page sum all the informations about the arguments at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bewelcome.info/" class="external text" title="http://www.bewelcome.info" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=2" title="Technical information about the website Bewelcome.info">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Technical_information_about_the_website_Bewelcome.info"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Technical information about the website Bewelcome.info</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Regarding to a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.whois2.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.whois2.org" rel="nofollow">Whois</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on Bewelcome.info from 30th September 2008 the Website was registered on 24th May 2007 by Veit Kühne. He is also the official administrator, the person who pay the bills and the technical contact person. The Domain is linked to a subpage of the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" rel="nofollow">HC Volunteer Wiki</a>, with the following edits:</p>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>2008/09/29 20:04 bewelcome.info – quick fix veit (current)</li>
<li>2008/09/26 19:03 show differences to current version bewelcome.info – published veit</li>
<li>2008/04/24 14:48 show differences to current version bewelcome.info – created veit</li>
</ul>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">It is possible to register to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/" rel="nofollow">HC Volunteer Wiki</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>with nickname/valid mailadress and after a registrationmail the new user could edit the page. So some information here may be outdated by new edits.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=3" title="Information about Veit Kühne">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Information_about_Veit_K.C3.BChne"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Information about Veit Kühne</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Veit Kühne from Radebeul, Germany is the founder and owner of the Hospitality Website<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://hospitalityclub.org/" class="external text" title="http://hospitalityclub.org" rel="nofollow">Hospitality Club</a></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=4" title="About Hospitality Services">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="About_Hospitality_Services"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">About Hospitality Services</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">In 1949 Bob Luitweiler founded the first hospitality service called<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.servas.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.servas.org" rel="nofollow">Servas Open Doors</a>. For More information about Hospitality Services, you can have a look at<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_service" class="external text" title="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_service" rel="nofollow">wikipedia</a></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=5" title="Launch of Bewelcome.info">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Launch_of_Bewelcome.info"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Launch of Bewelcome.info</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">On 26th September 2008 a member from BeWelcome<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/bw/member.php?cid=veit" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/bw/member.php?cid=veit" rel="nofollow">Veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>posted a new topic in the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/forums" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/forums" rel="nofollow">BeWelcome Forum</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>about the launch of Bewelcome.info. We can proceed from the assumption that the username is used by Veit Kühne. (A similar Post was made by Veit at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/26/wwwbewelcomeinfo-the-real-background/" class="external text" title="http://www.opencouchsurfing.org/2008/09/26/wwwbewelcomeinfo-the-real-background/" rel="nofollow">OpenCouchsurfing</a>.)</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=6" title="Content of Bewelcome.info">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Content_of_Bewelcome.info"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Content of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bewelcome.info/" class="external text" title="http://www.bewelcome.info" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">The key arguments &#8220;against&#8221; BeWelcome are:</p>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>BW is not democratic</li>
<li>BW is not transparent</li>
<li>BW is not based on a legal foundation</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen the Hospitality Club Redesign</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen the geografical database from Hospitality Club</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen the text (like FAQs) from Hospitality Club</li>
<li>BW founders have stolen money from Hospitality Club</li>
</ul>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=7" title="Arguments">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Arguments"></a><br />
<h1 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:188%;margin:0 0 .6em;">Arguments</h1>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=8" title="not democratic">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="not_democratic"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">not democratic</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#democratic" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#democratic" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>BW is not democratic.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=9" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">That is true. Quote from the About Us page from BeWelcome</p>
<blockquote><p>Dreaming alone is not enough. That&#8217;s why we have founded BeVolunteer, a non-profit organisation registered in Rennes, France. Through BeVolunteer&#8217;s official statutes, we provide a basis for democratic decision making, financial transparency and information security so that we can protect our members and manage the project BeWelcome effectively.</p></blockquote>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Therefore it is only guaranteed that you can join a decision if you are a member of BeVolunteer.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=10" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">To get a member of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is as easy as to get a member of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://bewelcome.org/" class="external text" title="http://bewelcome.org" rel="nofollow">BeWelcome</a>. You have to sign on at the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/" rel="nofollow">forum</a>. But even that you have no “guarantee to vote” as a member of BeWelcome, most of the discussions are made with and in cooperation with BeWelcome members.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=11" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>The discussions are currently still dominated by volunteers, and in future they will likely (or hopefully) be dominated by some very active or very noise members. How can we make sure that the interests of less noisy people are not ignored?</li>
</ol>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>Lemonhead thinks the solution is to do member research and surveys. That&#8217;s not democracy as in the book, but it&#8217;s useful.</li>
<li>Full<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/wiki/Democracy" title="Democracy">democracy</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>does only work if (i) enough people are informed and active enough to participate, and (ii) the available options do really give a meaningful choice, and (iii) we can rule out cheating. This is not impossible, but it needs a bit more thinking.</li>
</ul>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>How should our<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Propaganda&amp;action=edit" class="new" title="Propaganda">propaganda</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>material reflect this twilight state of democracy? Is it ok to write on a poster &#8220;BW is democratic&#8221; ? Veit and Lemon-head think it should not, or needs to be rephrased.</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=12" title="not transparent">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="not_transparent"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">not transparent</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they discuss almost everything behind closed doors&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=13" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_2"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">The first platform for the Volunteers was a mostly closed forum, and a mostly closed wiki. Even inside the forum there were different areas and levels of access.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">This way of hiding things is not so exotic, but it&#8217;s questionable in an org that makes transparency one of the core values. (depends a bit on the definition of transparency)</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">On the other hand, we can never rule out personal &#8220;hidden&#8221; discussions with chat or email, and it&#8217;s also not desirable.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=14" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_2"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">In February 2008 some of the the tools (like the wiki and forum) where not public for non BeVolunteer members. And even as a member of BeVolunteer you had to get a account to get access. Nowadays nearly everything is open to everyone. Even for non BeVolunteer members. Check it out:</p>
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer Website</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer Forum</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/Main_Page" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/Main_Page" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer Wiki</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/mailman" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/mailman" rel="nofollow">BeVolunteer MailingList</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/trac" class="external text" title="https://www.bewelcome.org/volunteer/trac" rel="nofollow">BeWelcome Trac</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(The Bug-Reporting tool)</li>
</ul>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">For editing rights (at some points) you need to have a account. In that case just contact a member of BeVolunteer.</p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=15" title="not based on a legal foundation">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="not_based_on_a_legal_foundation"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">not based on a legal foundation</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they discuss almost everything behind closed doors&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=16" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_3"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=17" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_3"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=18" title="founders have stolen the Hospitality Club Redesign">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founders_have_stolen_the_Hospitality_Club_Redesign"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founders have stolen the Hospitality Club Redesign</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#transparent" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they had stolen and used the complete HC Redesign&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=19" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_4"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" rel="nofollow">veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 25-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I heard that you plan to use the redesign that an HC team developed together. Even though the main graphic designer (Micha) might agree that you can use his work, I know some other team members who gave input and worked on it, do not &#8211; Simon (who managed the entire redesign process), Wibke and me definitely do not. Can I please have an answer what is the case here? Apart from the moral implications of simply taking (I didnt wanna say &#8220;stealing&#8221; here) the work of an entire team from HC, don&#8217;t you think it will be a bit ridiculous if there will be two hospitality exchange networks with the same or very similar layout soon (even IF a few colours or minor details might be different)?</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=20" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_4"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" rel="nofollow">claudiaab</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" rel="nofollow">You have a question about BeWelcome?</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 11-Sep-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>Many of our volunteers previously volunteered for hospitality club or couchsurfing. The same applies for the design team. Of course the fact that so many volunteers left the HC redesign team in order to join BW Design Team, including some of the main contributors, explains why there is a style similar to the work they have done for HC. This is normal and natural. Please note that in the beginning, when BeVolunteer was still called HCVolunteers, the aim was to contribute to HC. The actual BW design, however, does not resemble the results of the HC Redesign Team a lot. BeVolunteer does not in any way encourage its volunteers to breach contracts they might have signed related to previous volunteering activity. Further, volunteering experience is not a requirement in order to join the teams of BeWelcome. As long as they don&#8217;t break any law or contract our volunteers are free and encouraged to contribute their skills or experience to the project as much as they want and can.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=21" title="Sidenotes">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Sidenotes"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Sidenotes</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">For stuff done for BW there will never be such arguments, as it&#8217;s all GPL licensed. Just for the translations I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=22" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions_2"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Questions by lemon-head:</p>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>Who else has participated in the HC redesign, and why do these people not speak up? Or has Veit himself done the redesign?
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>I have to correct myself. The persons are clearly named &#8211; Simon and Wibke. I would be curious to read their opinions, and if anything can be done to settle this conflict.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>How much of the HC redesign has been copied in the starting days, and how much is still there today?
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>As I see it, it&#8217;s mostly the teaser with a colored bg, the shape of the tabs in the bottom of the teaser, and the shade of a world map in the teaser. Maybe some smaller design elements (search fields, buttons?) do also have similarities? The color itself has been changed to the much-loved, much-hated orange. In the HC drafts I don&#8217;t see any tabs on top of the teaser.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Do we need to think about a free license for translations? Lemon-head&#8217;s concern is not so much the idea of everything being free for all, but that authors have a right to (re)use their own work, even if it is part of a team product. For this sake, a free license seems the best solution.</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=23" title="founder has stolen the geografical database from Hospitality Club">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founder_has_stolen_the_geografical_database_from_Hospitality_Club"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founder has stolen the geografical database from Hospitality Club</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;they were using the exact same geographic database as HC&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=24" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_5"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=25" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_5"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" rel="nofollow">claudiaab</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" rel="nofollow">You have a question about BeWelcome?</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 11-Sep-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>What you saw was a sample of geographic data on a not official website, since it was done with the data one of the programmers used on his laptop for testing (as far as I have been informed this was not the data of the online HC database, it was just too big for the sample of the moment). As you can easily see the geographic data of BW is not the same as that of HC: we have to admit that so far there are still some places missing in our geo database &#8211; places that the HC database covers&#8230; The current data of the BW geobase comes from geodata, which is a public database, and is still evolving. Again, feel free to compare with HC.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=26" title="Question">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Question"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Question</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Where does the BW geo DB come from? I&#8217;m curious.. &#8212; lemon-head</p>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=27" title="founders have stolen the text (like FAQs) from Hospitality Club">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founders_have_stolen_the_text_.28like_FAQs.29_from_Hospitality_Club"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founders have stolen the text (like FAQs) from Hospitality Club</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>.Another blatant theft happened with texts HC Teams had been working on</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=28" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_6"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" rel="nofollow">veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 25-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I heard that you plan to use the redesign that an HC team developed together. Even though the main graphic designer (Micha) might agree that you can use his work, I know some other team members who gave input and worked on it, do not &#8211; Simon (who managed the entire redesign process), Wibke and me definitely do not. Can I please have an answer what is the case here? Apart from the moral implications of simply taking (I didnt wanna say &#8220;stealing&#8221; here) the work of an entire team from HC, don&#8217;t you think it will be a bit ridiculous if there will be two hospitality exchange networks with the same or very similar layout soon (even IF a few colours or minor details might be different)?</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>BTW, his explanations there are pathetic&#8230;he argues that you never stole the FAQ texts, because you have changed them by now. That&#8217;s like saying: I never stole a car, because look: I have a completely different one.</p></blockquote>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;"></p>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=29" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_6"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6" rel="nofollow">claudiaab</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1153.msg8229#msg8229%20reply#5" rel="nofollow">You have a question about BeWelcome?</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 11-Sep-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>Please see the answer to question 1, have a closer look at the current BW FAQs and compare them with HC FAQs. If you find any similarities that are not just due to the fact that the subject we are dealing with is similar, we would like you to point out concrete cases.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=30" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions_3"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">It seems like there was a day when BW FAQs looked the same as HC FAQs. The texts have all been changed long ago, but the structure is still there, so it seems. Question is:</p>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>At this time, was BW already a website, or rather a heap of code on some people&#8217;s laptops?</li>
<li>Who wrote the HC FAQs in the first place?</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=31" title="founder has stolen money from Hospitality Club">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="founder_has_stolen_money_from_Hospitality_Club"></a><br />
<h2 style="border-bottom:1px solid rgb(170,170,170);color:black;background-image:none;font-weight:normal;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;font-size:150%;margin:0 0 .6em;">founder has stolen money from Hospitality Club</h2>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" class="external text" title="http://volunteerwiki.hospitalityclub.org/bewelcome.info#theft" rel="nofollow">Bewelcome.info</a></p>
<blockquote><p>In Monnai, it looked as if Pierre was making a loss, so Veit personally urged the members there to donate some more money so this loss could be avoided. In the end, Pierre made a profit of about 2000 Euros.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=32" title="Pro">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Pro_7"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Pro</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88" rel="nofollow">veit</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 25-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I read in your FAQ that you are using this money for HCVol/BW. Is this correct? I have to assume it is, since you wrote it yourself. Now, if any of you don&#8217;t know: I had a clear agreement with Pierre, that the surplus money was to be used for HC. I even helped him a lot in Monnai when it seemed that they would make a deficit, so he wouldn&#8217;t have such a deficit. HC members in Monnai also knew this. I &#8211; and I guess many of them &#8211; would consider it highly immoral to now simply &#8220;use&#8221; this money to set up a competing site. For me, a word between friends or colleagues counts. Pierre (and others), if you are indeed using this money for HCVol, could I please have an explanation? (The one in the FAQ that HC doesnt have a legal status is really not a good one. The agreement between Pierre and me was that he simply holds on to that money until we DO have a legal status.)</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=33" title="Con">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Con_7"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Con</h3>
<p style="line-height:1.5em;margin:.4em 0 .5em;">Quote from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=5" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=5" rel="nofollow">pietshah</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at the discussion in the BeVolunteer Forum on discussion<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" class="external text" title="http://www.bevolunteer.org/forum/index.php?topic=427.msg2370#msg2370" rel="nofollow">“3 questions: Redesign, money from Monnai and texts+code”</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>from 28-Jan-2007.</p>
<blockquote><p>I will answer the topic about &#8220;money from Monnai camp&#8221; in the more precise way I can. It&#8217;s good, in fact, that you made this question since it pushed us to think more about the topic, and clear the things. I&#8217;m going to try to bring all the elements together. First a few point about the &#8220;history&#8221;: &#8211; There is indeed an agreement between me and Veit that eventual camp benefits will go to HC. More than that, I&#8217;ve always been a promotor of the general idea that HC camps (or promoted as such) must affect their eventual benefits to HC &#8211; Monnai camp shouldn&#8217;t have had benefits. One day before its end, Veit and me even did an announce that we were losing money and that people had to think about making a donation, as it was expected to finance the camp. Closing the accounts and paying the last bills, various supliers refused me to pay them since they wanted to offer then, and had some luck with administration services&#8230; That&#8217;s how, at the end, we had little more than 2000€ of benefits (sorry that i&#8217;ve not the exact number, the accounts are in my backup in france, i&#8217;ll get it in a few weeks) &#8211; some time after the camp, with Veit we talked about how to transfer that money to HC. I talked about 2 criterious:
<ul style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-type:square;list-style-image:url(http://www.bevolunteer.org/wiki/skins/lemonbook/bullet.gif);margin:.3em 0 0 1.5em;padding:0;">
<li>a legal one: that money comes from donations (from HC members, from other persons and from companies. The part of HC members donation is even the smaller in that), and from public subventions. The camp was managed by a legal NGO, which had to do all its stuff clearly. Its accounts and budget were published. (and I was well checked, for the story I can tell you that secret services were calling me once a week for monthes before the camp&#8230; hippies are dangerous people <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  ). As a consequence, the transfer to HC had to be done in a legal way: to a legal non-profit entity, publishing its accounts following legal rules.</li>
<li>a moral one: That money comes from donations. It looks to me as a very basic duty from me/us to give them an imput about how it was used, and for what. Giving a white check without more info on its future and management, isn&#8217;t a correct way to treat the donators.</li>
</ul>
<p>- these are the reasons why, after long hesitations and discussions, I, Jean-Yves and Nicolas (other administrator of the HCfriends NGO), decided not to proceed to the money transfer as long as these criterious are not fulfilled. Veit told various times that &#8220;HC will have a legal status&#8221;, so it&#8217;s just a question of time. Nothing more was really planed by us, except waiting. To be honest, we thought it might have been a motivation for Veit to hurry up in some changes in HC (legal status especially). &#8211; the money was put on a bank account and affected, in the accounts, as a reserve. &#8211; Since the HCfriends NGO have no activity planed anymore, we are not allowed to keep money like that. We decided to give its management to BeVolunteer, without changing anything of the nature/destination of that money. Since both organization has a stated goal to promote the ideas of hospitality and intercultural exchange, there was no problem in realizing that transfer. Note: we indeed published on our medias that BeVolunteer was using money from Monnai camp. Indeed, we had discussed that this money is here, and we consider ourselves like the evolution of HC so there is no problem. But well, the discussion had not been far enough, and we recognize it might have been an error. As stated below we will transmit the money when it will be possible. So, here is the situation now: BeVolunteer will indeed transmit that money to HC when the exposed conditions will be met. BeVolunteer BoD also established that this transfer could be also done to a HC related event which would be organized in a legal way with transparent financial management.</p></blockquote>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=34" title="Questions">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Questions_4"></a><br />
<h3 style="color:black;background-image:none;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;font-weight:bold;font-size:132%;margin:0 0 .3em;">Questions</h3>
<ol style="line-height:1.5em;list-style-image:none;margin:.3em 0 0 3.2em;padding:0;">
<li>What would have been the correct way to deal with this?</li>
<li>If we agree that waiting for a legal status is the correct way, then what is / would have been the correct way to deal with the money in the meantime?</li>
</ol>
<div class="editsection" style="float:right;margin-left:5px;">[<a href="/wiki/index.php?title=Bewelcome.info&amp;action=edit&amp;section=35" title="Notes">edit</a>]</div>
<p><a name="Notes"></a><br />
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